Chrissie Ep 42 (Erica)
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Erica: [00:00:00] I think the best outcomes really happen when we have the science and then we have the space to, what I believe is full body alignment,
Chrissie: it's one of those sufferings that's hard to Yeah. Hold. It's so hard to hold. We know we survive, but there's a part of us that. Is never ever the same.
Erica: I. there are highs and lows of every fertility journey, and we need these multidisciplinary teams from the beginning to set ourselves up for success, really. it's just so incredible because the whole point is to take back our power when infertility renders this otherwise powerless.
Chrissie: You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello friends, and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. Today's guest is my friend, Dr. Erica Bove, [00:01:00] who brings both wisdom and gentleness and fierce clarity to one of the most complex areas of medicine; fertility. Dr. Bove is a reproductive endocrinologist, physician coach, and the founder of Love and Science, Thriving Through Infertility, a space where evidence-based care meets soulful, whole person support. And what I can tell you right now is that I would have felt so supported had I had a similar connection in approximately 2005 through 2013, um, but especially 2011.
Um, what I love so much about this work is that Erica doesn't just help people through treatment. She walks them through the bigger questions about identity, about grief, and of course [00:02:00] about joy. She's someone who helps people feel seen in the moments they need it. So this topic is close to my heart. We had our own fertility adventures. We may get into those a little bit, but Erica, I've been so looking forward to this conversation and welcoming you to the podcast. Thanks for being here.
Me too, Chrissie. Thanks so much for having me.
Absolutely. I would love to hear a tiny bit of the origin story of love and science. Yeah, if you're willing to share.
Erica: Absolutely. Um, so let's see. So where to begin? So I, I like to start by saying I went to med school to be a psychiatrist because I've always been deeply fascinated by what motivates people, how to help people with their, minds and their bodies and, and all of their emotions. But then I went to med school and I was just captivated by O-B-G-Y-N. I just like thought that women's health was so [00:03:00] meaningful and exciting. And so I sort of course corrected, but I don't think that interest in understanding meaning and motivation and all that, that just never went away. I've always been very curious about that.
So I went through my OB GN training in residency and then did my you know, reproductive endocrinology and infertility fellowship. And as I was getting into practice, I was just angry, disheartened, sad in terms of the way that I knew people need to be cared for in the context of their fertility journeys and what I could actually do in the clinical setting, right? It was like, okay, I have 30 minutes to talk to you about your diagnosis, your labs, the treatment options, and then let's see if we can settle on a way forward. And, and, and I'm an empath, right? So like I could just tell in the context of these visits, like, this is not, this is not good care. Even though I'm like, you know, I thought, oh, okay, well I'll show them some studies from pub ed and like maybe that'll make it better. Or, oh, you know, I'll. You know, bring the partner in and see if we can, like nothing that I did for a little [00:04:00] bit worked. I was like, I am doing my best to provide good care and something is missing.
I just did not know what that thing was until I went to coaching school. So I went to coaching school kind of, I mean, during COVID kind of on an intuition, I was like, I'd drank the coaching Kool-Aid for myself. I'd done parenting coaching and relationship coaching, and I was like, I think I'm gonna be a coach. I dunno where this is gonna lead, but I'm gonna go to school and, and learn. And as I was doing the classes for the coaching school, I had this light bulb moment. I was like, I think this is what my patients need. I think they need these tools to really see them in their individuality, understand the, their values, making empowered choices that reflect who they are as an individual. And even if I can say, Hey, I see where you'd like to get, you'd like two children. This is, yeah. Like they need to find the answers within themselves, right? And so that's what coaching does, is it holds space to say, I see you. I see you in your humanness, in your, I see your dreams, I see your [00:05:00] grief. I see all of it. And this is, this is what I see, and how can I help you find your own answers, which are empowered, right? Because we use evidence, but they're also allowed to come to fruition in this beautiful space of love. Yeah, so then I did it just like
Chrissie: hold that with some, like, some silence around it because there's so much goodness.
Erica: Right, right, right. So I, I mean, I started trying it out to see if it would work. Right. So I remember one time I had this, uh, patient of mine and she had done three IVF cycles with her own eggs. It really did not look promising that it was gonna work if she kept doing the same thing. And I started to suggest to her, like, you know, have you ever thought about an egg donor? And I, it was like the end of the appointment, right? And um, I just remember saying, you know what, like, I. I am going to introduce this idea. I want you to talk about it with your husband and I want us to meet in two weeks and it's gonna be a consult only appointment, and we're gonna talk in two weeks about what it means to be a [00:06:00] mother. And that's what I wanna talk to you about in two weeks. And I have no agenda. I do not care if you pursue dinner at I vf if you do more treatments with your own eggs if you stop treatment altogether.
I want you to make the best choice for you, and you need the space to do that. And so I, we met in two weeks and we had this conversation and just her own ability to connect with like, oh, this is, this is why I'm here. This is what I think it means to be a mother. I. Within that context, what does that mean in terms of my own treatment options? What would I consider? And it and, and then instead of just the being like, well, these are your menu of options. It was like, how can I grow into this decision in a way that makes me feel like I'm making the best choice for me? Right.
I always say you'd never wanna look back five years, you know, into the future and say, well, if I had really only done that other thing or made that other choice or tried that out and so she was able to cross the bridge to make the best choice for her. But I think it's only because I was able to have that deeper [00:07:00] conversation with her that then allowed her to move forward, if that makes sense.
Chrissie: Totally makes sense. What you described at the top was really that you were experiencing moral injury as a practitioner, because time pressures and, um, so much of the care gets. Taken out of healthcare when we are treated like, you know, widget producing mechanisms. Yes. Yeah. Um, and, and in some ways coaching skills and the time to implement them, um, was a way of resolving moral injury. A hundred percent. It actually puts the connection back and the agency back.
Erica: That's right. That's right. Which is so profound. You're right. I feel like now I'm able to provide good care. Yeah. Yeah.
Chrissie: That's amazing. Um, my curiosity brain would really like to know what did she choose to do?
Erica: Donor egg.
Chrissie: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:00] And I could sense the thought model in what you were describing. Um, not that that's the, you know, end all, be all of coaching tools, but I think it's definitely, um, one that is, it's, uh, utilized frequently and that is, you know, where we are looking to. Know ahead of time, what result are we aiming for, and then what are the actions that will get us that result? That's right. In a way that we are aligned with. Right. Right. And what are the feelings and thoughts that we need to choose and generate and direct our mind toward? Yeah. In order to manifest the actions and the results that we're aiming for.
Erica: A hundred percent. And I think, you know, I always tell my clients like 95% of what goes on happens in our subconscious. Yeah. So we have to bring light to like, what limiting beliefs do I have that are in this complex being, and you know, for some people it's like, you know, ideas about parenthood or generational trauma even. Um, and I, I think [00:09:00] that really kind of understanding like, how is my operation at baseline and what are my thoughts and my feelings like at baseline and is that how I wanna be? And it, and if not, then how can I make these slight shifts? Like, you gotta challenge the thought, like, is that thought true? In order to be a mother, the DNA has to belong to me. Like is that thought true? And for some people exactly might be, and for other people it might not. But that's where the individual, you know, curiosity comes in. And um, and that's why I feel so good about this work is because people tune in and they really connect with their deepest why, and then they can make the choices from that. That much more powerful stance.
Chrissie: Yes. And then you hold that thought up to the light and say, yes is it, does it have solidity for me? Do I still choose this thought? Or is it causing unnecessary delay, unnecessary pain. Now let me tell you, from the inside of the infertility beast, there is so much, um, accidental, [00:10:00] subconscious thought happening. Yes. So many rules. So many. Um, well if I follow this, then that will happen. I know. Um, and we set ourselves into, um, I'll speak for myself, but I had, um, I had some rules that I didn't realize I had, you know, at first, or some of them were expectations. Right.
You know I, I, I've told this story before, um, that. We, we ca you know, we popped a bottle of champagne after our first at home insemination. 'Cause we were just done, you know? That's right. So we had an expectation in like 2005 that did not come to fruition until 2013. Um, and all along the way, even with therapy, even with a team of beautiful people supporting me, this particular like, let's examine the thoughts. Right. Does it serve you to feel victimized by your [00:11:00] circumstance over and over again? Right. To focus on the I don't understand. Why? Why us? Why not us?
Erica: Yeah. So much. And am I failing? Right? Like a lot of the people I work with, especially very high achieving women, feel like they are failing. They're failing their themselves, their potential future children, their spouse, if they have a spouse. And I think a lot of it is really examining the shame, uh, and the, the guilt, the regret, all of it. And, and learning how to forgive ourselves, right? And, uh, just really saying like, is it really your fault this hasn't worked yet? Really? What would you tell your best friend?
Chrissie: My, I mean, I think it's, it's, um, it's so interesting in telling that that can be directed inward or outward in my particular style of processing, it was directed outward. Like the universe, like I was fist, you know, shaking my fist at the sky, you know? Yeah. Awarded in my hearty [00:12:00] endeavor, um, until not. You know, but there's a, there's so much in the, the texture of surrender that I, I might have grokked at an intellectual level during those years, but I could not bring it down into an embodied experience until I, until I could.
Erica: I'm so curious about that, and I'm so grateful that you could, um, what, what do you think allowed that shift?
Chrissie: Oh, girl.
Erica: Because I, if I could just bottle that up, which I know is not possible. I know, like, was it, was it a moment, was it a transition? Was it like a season? Like was it a, a like a conscious letting go, an unconscious letting go? Like what do you remember from that time as you think back to. To, to how you were when you were more in your head, and then when you were able to drop into your body and allow, and ultimately sort of after all [00:13:00] those years, have your journey come to fruition.
Chrissie: There was definitely a season and the season contained, you know, going to Peru for medicine ceremony. This season contained having energy work and acupuncture and lucid dreaming about energy work and, you know, prayers and bargaining. The, you know, the season contained, all of those things.
But one of the stories that I tell myself. There was body work involved, but you know, the cycle that we got pregnant with Issa, there had been some recent energy work and body work, uh, but that's true for many, many times. Um, and it was about six months after we had gone to the Amazon and I had finally opened up this file on from my Dropbox that [00:14:00] were the essay questions for considering the possibility of adoption. So they are the essay questions that you answer. So it was actually this moment of introspection and reflection. Um, and I think opening the door of surrender to, okay universe if the answer is no one fuck off. But also by any means necessary.
And so there was a little bit of, I am willing to open this door. Hmm, I'm not, I hadn't decided, we had not decided, we did not feel intuitively that adoption was the path that we were called to. Mm-hmm. And I feel like so much of my consternation was because reality was in, uh, contradiction to my intuitive knowing that I had a child on the other side of the veil and why couldn't she or he come to [00:15:00] me? Why couldn't they come? Yeah. Wow. Um, so that's a long and sort of rambly answer, but I think it was, there is some medicine for me in opening the door to adoption, even though it's not what we eventually walked through.
Erica: That is beautiful and thank you so much for sharing. I full body chills over here. Like I just, that is surrender. I mean that is surrender and um, I'm just so grateful that you were able to do that, but it also takes tremendous courage tremendous. 'cause you gotta look that what you think you don't want in the face. Right? And you have to be like, I always say to my clients and my patients like, we need to go to your worst possible outcome. We need to go there. Like it it, we need to say like, we don't need to. I mean, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But I think your chances are gonna be the best if we can go to that which you fear the most. And that's like badass courage right there.
Chrissie: It is badassery. [00:16:00] And it's what prepares you also for holding the heart wrenching beauty that is parenthood when you're fully Yes. In immersed in it. You know, I'm not saying every moment of being a parent is, uh, full of beauty. Hello? 'cause I live in the planet, but yes, I know I, I said many times out loud. I want it all universe. I want the good and the bad and the ugly. I want the complicated, like give it to me. Mm-hmm. I am here for it. Yeah. But it did take some surrender.
Erica: Yeah. And I mean, now that you have Issa, right? Like mm-hmm. You then model how to handle the hard things and how, how to surrender. Like it's so hard to watch our kids suffer. Yeah. Um, I truly, deeply believe that part of why I'm here on this planet is to help my children to learn how to suffer well. Anyways. Yes. Oh my God.
Chrissie: Yeah. It's so beautiful. [00:17:00] Yeah. Yeah. That is so beautiful. I have full body chills now. Yeah. This is deep. Yes. Deep work. I mean, suffering is unavoidable. Yeah. Like we come down here, mess around in this little meat suit, separate from our deepest truth, and try to find our way back for fun.
Erica: That's right. That's right. Right. And sometimes, sometimes separating from those we love the most. Right. And, and even like miscarriages. Like why do miscarriages like this brings up so many existential questions, right? Like, like was there a soul in there that then was there and then left? And if this has happened, you know, I, I have one client and she was briefly a mother, right? And, and then Mother's Day rolls around and she doesn't have a child in her arms yet. And a lot of our work was like connecting with her identity. Yes, you are a mother. You are a mother. [00:18:00] Um, even if the world doesn't see you that way, it doesn't matter. You are, and, and let's connect with that. You know, it, it's, uh,
Chrissie: said that repeatedly in our, mm-hmm. In our journey, like we are parents who have not met our child yet. That's right. And I'll tell you Erica, like I'm, I'm coming out of the closet with all of my Woo today, but during our, during the worst part when we had our IVF, um, miscarriage mm-hmm. There were several, I mean, there was, yeah, there was a lot. But when we had our IVF miscarriage in particular. Um, it was such a shock. 'Cause, you know, we went from the pinnacle of success to like the pit of defeat in an instant on an ultrasound screen, which so many of us know that feeling. And it is, yes. It's gutting, it's coring. It's um, it's also somebody's every day like they do this all the time. And that hurts my heart so, so deeply. Yeah. Um. So when [00:19:00] we had that miscarriage, we, um, connected with a medium.
Erica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, interesting.
Chrissie: A psychic. And, um, we knew her from before and we had a reading with her because our, our hearts were just bleeding. You know, we were like, as they do, somebody help us, somebody help us. We were so devastated. Um, and, you know, financially devastated, like 70 grand about pocket guys.
Erica: Like, I'm so sorry, Chrissie. Just not to say I'm so sorry you went through that.
Chrissie: Yeah, thank you. And yeah. The psychic said to us that that particular baby had a, like a sole contract, that if he had been born, he would have died by age three. That was part of his contract. And so the suffering of this was then contextualized in the suffering of that, and there was room for some kind of fucked up gratitude in the midst of like our [00:20:00] worst pain. Because we could imagine that that pain would be, you know, even, even more devastating and, um, you know, my heart and arms around every parent who has lost a young child in that. Yeah. You know, age range because it's, um, it's really, it's one of those sufferings that's hard to Yeah. Hold. It's so hard to hold. We know we survive, but there's a part of us that. Is never ever the same.
Erica: No, we, my and my family of origin, I'm the oldest and I had a sister, um, she's still alive, Francesca, she's 21 months younger than me. And then when I was three and a half, my parents had another daughter who actually passed at two months of life, two, two months, um, due to age, flu, meningitis, and like watching my parents go through that horror, like I remember it so vividly. Even my three and a half year old little [00:21:00] self. Um, I mean, her spirit is like, I will tell you, there was a stormy night like two months ago. Um, she got me home safely. Like she is still a part of our family and I can feel her spirit and, and even like my amazing help nanny, I don't even know what to call her. She's like a, like an angel. Like her name is the same name as the sister we lost.
And so like I, I do believe in the journey of souls, and I've, I've had miscarriages as well. I would never wish it upon anybody. Um, but I do think that sometimes like perspective in that way, you're like, okay, well, you know, this happened and, um, that, well, that sounds horrible. This, this is, this is absolutely awful and that sounds like something we wouldn't want either. And so how do we just get the strength to grieve and move forward?
Chrissie: I'm so sorry that. Yeah, your little sister was lost. What? Thank you. What is her name?
Erica: Gabrielle. Yeah. Gabrielle. Yeah. And then my parents went on to have, and it's an angel's name. It is, yeah. It means the Lord is willing. Yeah. [00:22:00] Um, and so then my parents went on to have two more children who, you know, interestingly the timing wise, they would not be here if it weren't for, um, the loss, which is, you know, just so you just understand how one thing leads to another. Um, and like even this year I was with my parents at a fundraiser, on, I am trying to remember if it was the, I think it was the death date actually, not the birth date. And we looked at the program and we just had a moment of silence, like, wow, this day, you know, all these years later.
And so I think that's what I try to tell my patients and my clients is like this will always be with you. You know, and it's kind of like trauma, like it doesn't define us and it is with us and it's part of our story. I will tell you, I speak to patients much differently after my own personal experiences and even just the way I would describe, like I, we used to manage the beta book, um, when I was a resident. You know, these are people who come in with positive pregnancy tests, um, but we don't know where the pregnancy's located and yeah, that's.
Chrissie: For anybody who's wondering.
Erica: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. And I, I used to say, and I, I'm just admitting this out loud, like I used to [00:23:00] say, oh, like good news. It's not an ectopic, like, it looks like you've had a miscarriage. And then after I went through my own experiences, I mean that coming back, I'm like, wow, like that was kind of naive, but like, how would I have known otherwise? You know, again, I release the self-judgment. But then, you know, after I had my first miscarriage, I could say like, with empathy, like, I am so sorry. Um, you know, I'm, I'm here to give you this news. It looks like you've had a miscarriage. And like, it, it wasn't like, oh, great news. It's not an ectopic, it was like, you've had a loss and I wanna honor that. Like, it's, it's just, it's much different.
Chrissie: You know, I was actually just gonna call out and, and acknowledge how you have twice or at least twice on this call, um, modeled so beautifully how to create a moment of space and connection to say, I'm so sorry you experienced that loss. Yeah. I'm so sorry for your loss. Um, that is what to save my friends, my loves, my beautiful friends out there. Yes. Anybody who's ever heard the words, um, [00:24:00] when are you gonna try again? Or at least you can have another one or, mm-hmm. It could have been farther along. Please don't silver line this loss. No. It's just hold space. No. Um, God bless you for your efforts and please don't do that.
Erica: Yes. And can, can I add a really useful thing to say? Absolutely. Like we say what not to say, but it's not your fault. This was definitely
Chrissie: Oh, so, so, so important.
Erica: It's like even the word miscarraige is so fucked up like it, it is not your fault. It's not your fault. Yes. Yeah. And that's the one thing, miscarriage thing,
Chrissie: the carrying was wrong.
Erica: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, I, I start, I've chosen to start saying like, either early pregnancy loss or pregnancy loss because, and, and like a stupid biochemical, again, language is, words are so powerful. Um, and I always meet people where they are. If they prefer different language, then I, I use that language, but I just have so many problems with our language around this. Um, but anyway, I digress.
Um, I think that just holding space and, and reminding people, that was the [00:25:00] one thing my ob GYN said to me, you know, during my loss during residency was like, I, I'm gonna talk to you like you're a patient, you know? And 'cause I was a patient, even though I was an OB GYN resident, she was like, this is not your fault. And I'm like, it's not because I operated for 14 hours yesterday. Like, she was like, no, you know, it wasn't because I ate from the taco truck on Tuesday. Like, we always go back and blame ourselves. Um, but, but that's the one thing I always make sure to say that to each person because I mean, you know. It's, it's never, it's never the person's fault.
Chrissie: And I'm so sorry that you went through this.
Erica: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
Chrissie: I love the name, Love and Science. It stopped me in my tracks. I knew that we were gonna be friends. Um, how did you get the, how did you get the inspo? Yeah, for love and science, um, was it just like a direct download? Tell me.
Erica: Way back when, when I was in training, I saw a onesie that [00:26:00] said, and this was meant for, um, you know, babies conceived through assisted reproductive technology. It said, made with love and science. And so I shamelessly borrowed that because I, you know, as I think about speaking of the woo, like the woo's real folks, like the Woo is real. Like we, we discount it because like, we don't have a randomized controlled trial, but like it works. Like, and, and I think that you know, in order to, to, for this to work. Like, then I started, you know, as an attending. Um, I would say that during my transfers, like, you know, love and science, like this is made with love and science to, to remind ourselves that the love is there.
And like I will tell you, like I, yeah, this week was very intense and there was a patient I very much wanted to get pregnant and she had one egg, which fertilized and so we had one embryo to work with and I was very careful as I always am with the transfer, right? And I put the, the embryo in and I just like, I just like put every bit of energy I had, you know, I don't know if she's pregnant yet. I feel like she's gonna be just because I can sometimes feel it in the, in the [00:27:00] or usually can. Um, but I just, I know, but I just like prayed over her uterus and I was like, like stick, stick. And then of course I gave her a hug. And then, you know, for your folks who need a little more lightheartedness than this deep conversation, we had the same, uh, water bottle. And so then I made sure that we cheers our matching tool, you know, in hot yellow water bottles, because that's so human too. I was like, we have to celebrate this moment, you know?
And, um, anyway, it's just like, it's, it's, you know, once I realized that I could really be myself, um, which again is a process like speaking of joy, like you gotta figure out who you are and, and then I, that, that made me a better doctor, beat it so hard. Like, laugh with my patients, cry with my patients, you know, give fist bumps, like whatever it is, like that is authentically me. And so once I started to like release that, then it was like, okay, like it's all over. Like, you know, this is me. And, um, and patients I would say respond well to that, but I, but I think that that's a perfect example of like the love and the science. Like we have this beautiful high quality embryo. We have this patient who [00:28:00] had gone through an awful lot in the last week medically, and, and here I was as the conduit, right? Like, just like, okay, channel this, like let this be, if this is, if this is her highest good, if this is their highest good, like please let this little embryo stick and, and I could just like feel it flowing.
And so that's really why, because I think that sure, it's just like, do you choose a surgeon who has like an excellent bedside manner or do you choose a surgeon who is really good at surgery, like. Yes. The question is why do we really have to choose, right? The answer is yes, I want both. Yeah, right? I want both. And so like, how can we as physicians doing this work, like how can we embody that? Because I think the best outcomes really happen when we have the science and then we have the space to, what I believe is full body alignment, right? Like if we talk about receptivity. We need full receptivity. We need the receptors, we need the embryo to find its home. We need all those chemical and mechanical things to happen. I'm nerding out for a second, but like we truly need receptivity and full body alignment. And so what helps us to do that is the surrender, [00:29:00] the letting go, the emotional regulation, feeling the feelings, letting all of it pass through. And that's where I see the best outcomes.
Chrissie: Wish I had a time machine. I would rewind it and I would fly my ass to Vermont to be your patient. I seriously would,
Erica: you know, I just, and I, I so wish we had known each other then. I don't think I could have served you in in those years because I don't think I was the version of myself now that I could have helped you in that way.
Chrissie: I'm so glad you are serving people now. Yeah,
Erica: but what I will say is I think part of our coming together and I feel this deeply is, is you know, we all heal, right? Like grief is a spiral and we have all these layers of healing. Like at some level, I feel like our coming together is to heal parts of what may be unhealed from that process to be like, it's okay. Like you learn what you needed to learn and there's always tender spots, right? And, and we don't understand why we all come into each other's lives [00:30:00] as we do. Time is really just a construct, but I think we all have our own healing journey and, um, it feels like this is, this is part of that.
Chrissie: I receive that and amplify it so. May it be of benefit. I absolutely believe that just knowing you're out there heals that piece of me that was missing, um, this kind of energetic connection and support during that time. Some. Yeah, you're, you're doing miracles every day. Thank you. And with heart and obviously in like a somatically aligned and integrated way.
Erica: Yeah.
Chrissie: Yeah.
Erica: Thank you. Which also means I need to be somatically aligned and integrated because Absolutely. We can't be the channels unless we pour into ourselves. And so I think that kind of ties, ties with the joy because if I am blocked, then it's not gonna flow through. Um, it's not gonna be the best Great turn.
Chrissie: What are you doing to stay aligned and open?
Erica: Oh, so many things. [00:31:00] So many things. Um, so I think my body, I think I've gotten really good at, um, knowing when something's off kilter. Um, that's like the first thing is just like, I used to just like be so cerebral and like not in my body at all. And I recognize too, like, I'm like, oh, I am spinning. I am, you know, not in my body. And so when that happens, then I have to say, okay, I recognize this state of like misalignment outta balance, whatever it is. I'm just like, not here. Um, which is why I love that we grounded before we got on the, before we got on the call, like we, we got on the call and then we, we listened to my favorite song and I, I truly connected with the Divine before, um, we had this, it was so powerful.
So, so then I say, okay, what do I need to do in this moment? Is it canceling something? Is it going to yoga, yoga never disappoints. Is it going for a run outside? I'm grateful to live in such a beautiful place with nature. Is it snuggles with my children and I'm so grateful to [00:32:00] have them. Is it journaling? Um, and so there are certain things like I, I have some structure. Like I, I get to an in-person yoga class at least once a week. That's just like a hard, like I just don't not do that. Um, you know, and yeah, and I have like, you know, like my, I love orange theory and so that gets my prana going and so I like to move my body. That always makes me feel joyful. And I do it with friends and I sing on the treadmill. 'cause I'm, I've decided, I just don't care anymore. So we are the same, are both,
Chrissie: I call it treadmill karaoke, and I love to, oh, I love it. Um, I love to appall my family with it. I get really into it if it's Jewel like from the early nineties.
Erica: I love Jewel Yeah. That's amazing.
Chrissie: It is. There's so much energy moving when you do that.
Erica: I know. Yeah. So I mean, and sometimes I need to see beauty, like, especially if I'm on call and it's been like, you know, because I'm an empath, like I do tend to absorb some things and so sometimes I just need to go to an art museum and, or like a, like outside if, if I'm in [00:33:00] Vermont, there's flowers everywhere. But if, you know, I'm other places, sometimes I go to a botanical garden and just like observe the colors and the sense and like, like embodiment, like get into my body. So all these things involve some sort of spiritual connection and movement usually, and connection with people I love. Um, not, I mean, not always.
I mean sometimes it's connecting with myself, um, 'cause I am essentially an introvert. But it's, it's that, and I love that, that you sort of, your definition of joy, because I really do think it's like, okay. You know, it's not a checkbox. It's not like, oh, out of alignment, let's get joy. But it's like, I need to nurture myself and what are my tools? I have a Joy 20 list, like I shared with you earlier, like, I have like my list of things that are like automatic resets. Um, but because this is how I wanna live, you know, and, and joy is such a driving force for me, and you know, if I'm not, well, I can't help anybody else, right? So, um, and it, it's just pleasurable.
Like, I think we discount pleasure. Like, it's like, you know, why would I not like put my nose in like a huge flower? Why would I not [00:34:00] belt it out on the treadmill? Life's too short. Like, even yesterday I was driving back from Vermont and like I just, the music came on. I just started singing and like loudly. And it is just like, does anybody else, can anybody else hear me or see me? I don't care. Like this is how I wanna spend my time. And that's it. Um, living out loud. I love it. Yeah. And sleep. I mean, you know, I think as best as I can, you know, I, I try to get sleep and I eat well and like, you know, I, all those sort of staples are in there, but I, I don't think that's sufficient. I think that's necessary. Um, but I don't think it's sufficient. I think we have to seek, I have to seek those, um, times of spiritual connection, uh, to really fill my, well, yeah,
Chrissie: I really identify with, um, you know benefiting from movement and mm-hmm. Um, beauty and nature. Mm-hmm. For sure. Um, and then sometimes I'm still just not willing to actually do the work. And I, I guess there's a bit of me that's like, I'm just gonna kind of like hang out in this low level energy [00:35:00] for a bit. And, um, yeah, ponder, I feel ponder that too.
Erica: Yeah. And I, I think that's like the. The last piece of this is the feeling, the feelings, you know? And it is like, okay, like I can make my body feel better. I can savor this cup of tea, but like at some point I need to like journal about what's hard and you know, and share with a friend and like go to that deeper level. And so again, structure, like I have a standing conversation with my best friend every two weeks and we get on the phone and we, so it's, we have a gratitude practice, which is fantastic. We've done that since 2019, which. I mean, that's just like currency for joy because, you know, instead of just going through life, like I really savor things that I never would savor before. And I'm looking for things that are, we, we try for three gratitudes a day. And it's, it's usually more than that because it's like, well, why do I stop at noon? Like there's a whole half a day left. You know what I mean? So, um, so that's been really helpful.
But it's, that's the hardest part, I think, is saying, okay, well if I'm really gonna help my clients and my patients [00:36:00] feel their feelings, like I need to, what I call being emotionally sober, you know, be, um, like in it with my feelings and uh, and just hold space for all of it. And curious.
Chrissie: I like that term emotionally sober. When we do another episode, sometime we can like dive deep into emotional sobriety. I love it. Absolutely. Um, I am creating a, like a daily planner right now for clients. Um, you're welcome to it also, um, that has like a three gratitudes practice built into like amazing, like the planner of every day. Um, and I'm just going back into. Like really analog, super paper terms, like I just wanna write on paper. I don't want it to be another thing on a screen. I wanna have space to doodle. I wanna have a blocked out area words of encouragement at the top of the day and words of self appreciation at the end of the day. Yes, and all [00:37:00] the badassery accomplished in the middle of the day. You know, I just, I'm very excited about putting this together. I'm so excited. A, like, it's not about productivity, it's about joy. Let there be both. Yes. Let there be both. Let there be both.
Yeah. So turning back to REI and fertility, um, what would you say is missing in that practice these days now? Like how, and maybe not even just like fault finding what's wrong, what's missing, but like how do you think we can link the clinicians to more of what you are embodying?
Erica: Yes. I think that we need to understand that mental health and support for mental health [00:38:00] needs to be a staple of fertility treatment. Just like we give ourselves medications every night, just like we check and make sure the pharmacy's all good and you know, we do our acupuncture, like all the things. Because I think that a lot of times people think like mental health is just extra. Those, for those people who are like really struggling or you know, having a breakdown or almost at the hospital.
And I think like early and often, like we need to people who show up at the fertility clinic in the first place at their New patient appointment, we need to invest in mental health support. Whether that's a therapist who deeply understands this journey. I'm very grateful when I was at the University of Michigan, we had, um, two part-time therapists on staff who were both excellent. Um, and you know, from the very beginning it was like, okay, you know, and, and you know, somebody has a miscarriage, which is obviously a horrible situation. Like they're right there in the clinic who c and provide support in real time.
Like, so I think that like we have to understand that like I there are highs and lows of every fertility journey, and we need these multidisciplinary teams from the [00:39:00] beginning to set our, to set ourselves up for success, really. Um, so that's what I think is the biggest piece is it's like, and that's, I mean, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why people, you know, learn about love and science, they don't sign up, is they're like, oh, it's just extra and I'm already paying so much money for fertility treatments and and I think what people don't realize is that to have that like built in support, it just makes everything better. And you know, people say, oh, my relationship with my partner is like the best it's ever been. We're like communicating and leaning on each other.
And, you know, um, you know, people speaking about identity, right? Like fertility takes up so much of, of the identity and I, I encourage my clients to do things that are outside of fertility. So I have a. Client who's learning how to arrange flowers in Paris this week. Um, and that's her being like, screw you in fertility. You are not everything. Like if I'm hanging out my Lupron, I'm gonna go learn, you know, express this other part of myself that needs beauty.
you know, so it's really about like, how can I look at my identity and realize that I'm so much more than this journey and this process. And I think that that's really hard work to do [00:40:00] by yourself. I think that most people need a guide to, to do that. And you know, sometimes, like I said, like in, in real time, like there are more intense moments. Like, you know, somebody gets really bad news like, hey, your eggs didn't fertilize, or hey, you know, you have no embryos from the cycle, or you know, you just had a miscarriage. Like, you know, we need to have structures that allow for support, um, in those moments as well.
Chrissie: I am remembering this psychologist attached to my fertility clinic, and it really was just a checkoff list. Like that felt like you needed to be deemed stable, you know, to proceed. Which was not the same as, you know, an intervention of support. No. If there had been, um, I'm gonna say the word mandatory, but you know, everything is agency. But if there had been like a built in, this is your coach. Mm-hmm. You know, to your fertility journey, like Yes, yes. You're gonna know your nurse really well. Yes. You're gonna know your doc really [00:41:00] well and your pharmacist. Um, but you're also gonna know this coach. Yeah. And this coach is gonna check in with you every one to two weeks. Mm-hmm. Um, and they're gonna ask you to do some introspection and they're gonna ask you to do some exercises. I mean, what an incredible value add that would be.
Erica: Yeah. And I, I think we need community. We need community. Mm-hmm. Um, this process is so incredibly isolating. People think that it's just them when realistically one in six humans has infertility. Um, and that number even goes up in certain populations. Like, we need to, like physicians. Yeah, physicians, um, surgeon. It's one in three surgeons. I mean, it's crazy. So like, but everyone is in their own silo suffering, thinking it's their fault, you know, on the brink of divorce, like whatever it is. And I think the minute that we can come together and say like you know, oh, it's not just you. Or like, somebody has a hard day and like somebody can see their story reflected in another person.
I have clients who send each other cookies across the country. Like, I just [00:42:00] think that, you know, I'm, I'm blown away. Like I do support groups on Friday nights and I'm just always blown away by the way that strong women are able to support each other through these hard times. Um, and so I think that everybody needs a community, even if you're a super introvert like me, because we heal together, we're stronger together, and we need to create structures that allow for supportive groups.
And, and you know, one thing I'm super proud of is that my community, it's not a competitive space. It's a collaborative, supportive space. It's a nurturing space. If somebody has a transfer day, we rally around that person. If they have a, um, egg retrieval, we, we get excited and we cheer, you know, like all the things. Um, but I think we need to heal together. And the only way to do that is to make it happen through supportive channels.
Chrissie: I love that. And it's a perfect segue to say in detail about your structure. Yeah. Um, let's share with our listeners what you do as a fertility. Like how do you work with people? What's the structure [00:43:00] like?
Erica: So I think the backbone is the groups truly, in terms of people having a space where they know they can come, where we talk about the hard things, you know, the structure of the groups. It's interesting, we always start with the win of the week. And that's not to be Pollyanna to sugarcoat anything, but our brains will naturally go to what's not working. And so if we can just take a little five minutes of time and turn our attention to what is actually working. And it doesn't even have to be fertility related. Sometimes it's like, oh, I set a boundary with a colleague, or Oh, I, you know, um, I dunno, organize this really beautiful event. Like, it doesn't have to be fertility specific, but like we all have things in our lives. It's the 50 50 of life. That are actually going well and we need to tune our attention to that. And it's like, like the gratitude thing, it helps us to notice it when it happens outside of those meetings. So we start with the win of the week and we celebrate each other. 'cause it's, it's, we do it in community, it's beautiful.
And then we then talk about what's hard and. I do laser coaching, um, I tune into my intuition 'cause this is obviously an intuitive endeavor. And if there has [00:44:00] been like a clustering of things, like sometimes I truly turn into what I call, fuck it Friday. And um, and we talk about like, what's like super extra hard this week. And then, but the point is not to just air our grievances. The point is to say, okay, and how do we, you know, help so and so in that zoom square, like take back her agency. Like how do we do that? And so you know, I will sort of offer the laser coaching and then I open it up to the group and it's amazing what comes from the group in terms of like, you know, hey, like I was in this situation, this is what helped me, or, oh, have you considered this?
And um, it's just so incredible because the whole point is to take back our power when infertility renders this otherwise powerless. And it's just what I can do and, and, and yes, my one-on-one coaching sessions are very powerful and I, I do offer those to some people who want it. Um, and there's incredible power for transformation as we can really, you know, hone into someone's detailed situation with lots of time. Um, but I really do find that it's the group aspects that, um, really promotes the most healing, um, which is beautiful.
And then of course, all my clients [00:45:00] are nerds like me. And so we have content, we have videos and, and homework. And um, you know, I really wanna make this like sort of, um, it like one-on-one. Um, I wanna make this like very palatable for people in the context of their life. And so, uh, this is what we do. We have homework, we have a text chat in between so people can stay in touch. And we have the groups and the one-on-one. And it, it's really about saying like, how can we get unstuck and how can we heal in community? Because I say this every day. Every one of my clients graduates as a parent. That is my, that is my hope. That is my intent. And so we don't know how long that journey is gonna take, but I'm gonna walk you through, we're gonna walk you through so that everyone gets across the bridge to parenthood, you know, in a, in a way that is, um, their path. And so it's, it's just beautiful.
Chrissie: I love picturing you holding hands and walking people across a bridge to parenthood. It just feels like so much deep accompaniment. Mm-hmm. Um,
Erica: yeah. And then, I mean, I always say like, you know, once you finally do get pregnant, it whole [00:46:00] sets up a whole new set of anxieties and fears and so you know, I have groups for newly pregnant people, and that sort of, is this gonna still work? Is it not? Especially for people who have losses. Yeah. And I work with people for however long it serves them. Right. So sometimes it's an entire pregnancy because you, you can't really exhale until the baby's in your arms. Right. So it's, it's, and yeah, it's, it's beautiful. So it,
Chrissie: especially if you live and breathe in medicine and you know all the different ways that a thing can go wrong.
Erica: Yeah, and I mean, and you probably know this as well, like people who go through infertility treatment have similar anxiety and depression rates to people with cancer, and there's a much, much higher rate of postpartum depression and anxiety. Um, and people who have gone through fertility treatments, um, for reasons that are not quite, I have some theories, but um, I think we need to understand this is not just about like checkbox, like, okay, your embryo is stuck, you're moving on, or whatever it is, but it's about like full spectrum. You are a whole person. You are becoming a parent. How can we support you through that whole journey?
Chrissie: Yeah. [00:47:00] Yes. Traumatized newly pregnant people are gonna be nervous and scared and need some extra support. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to relax into it during pregnancy. Yeah. Um, I'm so, so grateful that you are out there doing work in the world that we found each other, that joy is one of your most important driving forces. Just yeah. Yeah. So, so glad to to be family.
Erica: Thank you. Likewise, Chrissie. I've just, my heart is so happy knowing you. Yeah.
Chrissie: Yes, yes, yes. Um, all right, last thoughts on solving for joy, Erica.
Erica: Oh, so many thoughts. Okay, so, um, one thing I've learned, 'cause I'm a doer, is that joy does not happen when I'm multitasking. It just, just doesn't for me. Ooh, snap. Yeah, snap for us Enneagram threes. I know, I, I, I'm, I'm an Enneagram four, which is interesting, but, um, but still, [00:48:00] like I actually have time on my schedule that is like white space. Like it is truly like, and, and even if it's just a half an hour every day where I'm like, there will be no screens, there will be no anything. Like, this is my time just intentionally slow down. Otherwise I'm like, it's my to-do list. 'cause my dopamine is like going off left and right. Right. So, I have to, again, it's, it's like that structure in the spontaneity, like you need both. But there's certain things I put into my. Life, like daily meditation always happens.
Like there's, there's some things that I just do because I know that that's the foundation for me to have like a, a healthy life. And so, um, slowing down as hard as it is for me to do, 'cause like it is safe to rest, is a mantra of mine. Um, the joy happens in the slow moments and the unexpected moments. And, um, I just have to say like, yes, like you need to give up the dopamine and it is good for you to give it up because you know, you never know when you're gonna have those moments, and so slowing down is really helpful.[00:49:00]
And then, um, I would say curiosity, like curiosity is something I've gotten a much greater appreciation for over the last several years as I've been doing a lot of work and on myself, right? And understanding this, this human, uh, who is here and, uh, just that takes space too. You know, we need spaciousness to allow for these things and that, which is kind of hard, especially with the way our lives are. Um, but. Those things help me to cultivate more joy because I can focus on being in the moment and when I am just sort of in my to-do list when I'm just racing around and multitasking and, and even when I don't have transition time. That's another thing I've learned. I saw that Jessie Mahoney was on your podcast, like she taught me this, like have transition time in between things whenever possible because then you can integrate those experiences, right? And then you can savor. Right. The, the gratitude practice alone is not it's not the thing, in my opinion, it's the savoring of that gratitude and like letting it be embodied. That's where, that's [00:50:00] where the magic is, right?
So I think when we can slow down just a little bit and transition in between our things, um, even if it's just like a breath or a moment to say like, I'm transitioning, then we can then be present for all of it in a way that like, you know, if, if my brain is like 30 minutes ahead, I'm not in my present moment, I. Right. So I, I strive for that. Doesn't always work. Um, but it's, it's one thing I recognize as one of the ingredients for me being my healthiest self.
Chrissie: So many, so many gems. This one's worth like three listens. Erica, thank you so much.
Erica: Um, thank you Chrissie.. I adore you. I appreciate you Likewise.
Chrissie: We'll talk soon. We'll talk soon. Uh, love science fertility.com.
Speaker: Thank you once again to Dr. Erica Bove for this generous grounding conversation. I loved it so much. [00:51:00] The way she holds space for her patients, for their stories, for joy itself is such a gift. I know so many of our listeners are walking through complex chapters right now with infertility or other challenges, and I hope this episode offered a little gentleness and hope.
Next week I will be joined by Dr. Una, physician, founder, and powerhouse in the conversation about what's possible when we stop playing small. We will talk about reclaiming agency building lives that fit and the joy of stepping into our own story. I cannot wait to share it with you.
If you are a physician coach looking for community, come join us this November at the Physician Coaching Summit. It is one of the most connected, joyful spaces I know of, and you can learn more at the physician coaching summit.com. If you're curious about what [00:52:00] coaching might open up for you visit Joy Point solutions.com. I'm happy to hop on a call and chat about possibilities. And remember, I'm a doctor, but not your doctor. This podcast is for educational and inspirational purposes only, and is not to be construed as medical advice. Big thanks as always to our creative crew, Kelsey Vaughn, Alyssa Wilkes,
Chrissie: Shelby Brakken and
Speaker: and Sweet Sue, and to you. Thanks for being here. May you find a new way this week to solve for joy. We'll see you next time.
