Chrissie Ep 40 (Paul)
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Paul: [00:00:00] I was in my acupuncture training and I incorporated it into my medical practice for a good 16 years and finally I said, this is something that has to materialize. Not just a a wish or a dream or a passion project or a retirement hobby, but my true ikigai.
Chrissie: there's so much power in seeing our own suffering reflected in someone else that we admire and respect. Somebody who we had unintentionally excluded from suffering. We're like, oh, they've got it together. It's just me. And then we've hyper-personalized our experience of suffering when there's actually so much to be gained from realizing our commonalities.
Paul: I think community is something I think we're missing in our broken medical system and I think a path forward of how we can restore it and revive it and, bring the energy back to medicine.
Chrissie: You're [00:01:00] listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. Today's guest I get to introduce you to is Dr. Paul Yutan. He is someone I have had the pleasure of knowing for a couple of years now through work at Joy Point Solutions. And our, uh, common experience in healthcare organization. Um, Paul is an internal medicine doctor with a focus on geriatrics and palliative care, and he recently opened Westlake Integrative Medicine in Lake Oswego, Oregon, which is a medical acupuncture clinic. And in today's episode, we're gonna explore Paul's story, how he has lost and found his spark in medicine, and, um. I can't wait to get into it with you, Paul. Welcome.
Paul: Well, thank you Chrissie I'm so excited to be here. [00:02:00] Uh, I'll have to publicly proclaim this is my first public podcasting, but super excited. I've listened to your podcasting format. It's really been quite, um, I love your guest speakers, and I'm like, oh my goodness. I'm actually one of your guest speakers. What an honor. What an honor.
Chrissie: Thank you so much for those kind words my friend. In our, um, prepping for our conversation today, um, I, I know you're. You know, you gave me a little backstory about what it was like to engage with coaQing for the first time and, um, and how surprising it's been for you, and that's really where our journey together started. So, I'd love if you wanna share, what it was like for you to, to first approach coaQing as a physician, somebody who was ready to make a decision and a change in their professional life, and, um, and how that's been going for you.
Paul: Yeah, absolutely. Chrissie. You know, I first met you a few [00:03:00] years ago during group coaQing. Uh, it was my medical group that was really offering this group coaQing. I remember it was the second version of it. My medical director actually went through the first, um, round and had positive things to say and, uh, had really encouraged us through an email really, you know, here's, here's this, uh, 12 by 12 format, 12 weeks, 12 people. Um, and, uh, and, and to be honest, my, my first instinct with coaQing was like, ah, that's not for me. It's a little bit fluffy. And I, I kind of put that email aside.
But, uh, something about it said, well, why don't I, why don't I give it a try? Um, so I, I did, so those pre preconceived notions were put, uh, put to rest pretty quickly kind of the, the moment for me was when we were in the 12 by 12 and with our big medical group. Um, we have quite a few specialists and I remember there being quite a few specialists there. A podiatrist, a surgeon, an ob, GYNA pediatrician. And what struck me as this aha moment [00:04:00] was, you know, this thing where I thought I was siloed and feeling like my clinic was broken. My little microsystem was broken. I, I heard it was, wow, everyone's saying the same thing. And I was a, a pretty big moment to share that in such a, a group. Pretty powerful moment for me. Um. Yeah. So from there, you know, we learned a lot of skills of, of how to kind of stand up for ourselves and advocate for ourselves, how to say no, how to set boundaries, all hugely important skills.
Chrissie: we often let those opportunities go by the wayside because they feel as you, as you put it, a little too kumbaya, a little too, let's all hold hands and everything's gonna get better. But there's so much power in seeing our own suffering reflected in someone else that we admire and respect. Somebody who we had unintentionally excluded from suffering. We're like, oh, they've got it together. Oh, those other clinics must know what they're doing. Oh, those other specialties must be okay. It's just me. [00:05:00] And then we've hyper-personalized our experience of suffering when there's actually so much to be um. Um, to be gained from realizing our commonalities. That's one of the most beautiful things from that, you know, that experience with coaQing for institutions where we had so many different specialties and medical sites represented together.
And then when you entered 12 by 12 with Joy Point solutions we dove a little bit deeper into some of those concepts like finding your value system, and I know that one of those, um, one of the concepts that really resonated with you, that you got a lot of miles at was finding your Ikigai. Um, do you wanna talk about Ikigai a little bit?
Paul: Yeah. So, you know, for those who don't know about Ikigai, um, you know, um, Chrissie's a, uh, a great teacher of that. She taught me, you know, basically, um, how to find my Ikigai. So, [00:06:00] um, you know, I, I'm, I, I'll do injustice and kind of explain that real quick. You know, finding that Ikigai is kind of finding what you, what I, for me, I'll personalize, you know, what. What my passions are, what my unique qualities are, what my gifts are.
Um, so that's kind of that one bubble. And the, the second bubble would be, you know, what, what service can I provide to the world? You know, what does the world need? Um, and that would be that second, um, circle. And then the third would be, you know, what, what can we actually get paid for in, in that intersection of, of, uh, of the three Is, is your iki guy. And, and, uh, yeah, I discovered it was my medical acupuncture practice that I really was passionate about. Um, I. And I, I started to fall. I remember that moment, right? Yeah. I was like, wow. So powerful.
Chrissie: I, I will add one tiny thing. It's, it's four circles because what we're good at and what we love are actually two different circles because funnily enough, we can love things that we're not good at, and we can be [00:07:00] good at things that we don't love or don't love anymore. So they are, um, represented in this Venn diagram of four, you know, circles in the cardinal directions. And then my addition, especially for those of us in healthcare is the background circle that encompasses the entire Venn diagram because we also need the background that says, and it doesn't kill you. Right? And it's not something that you are a hundred percent burned out doing. So it's an important, um. It's an important ad.
But when you have that meta awareness, oh, I am doing what I love, oh, I am doing what I'm good at. Oh, I am doing what the world needs and I can make a living, I can do well while doing good. There is, um, there's so much joy. I was gonna say satisfaction, but really, I mean, it's a meaning and alignment and delight moment. It is joy, um, which is beautiful to behold, right?
Paul: So yeah. Now that I found my Ikigai. Um, it, it's really honing on [00:08:00] that and having that kind of be be my guiding star of where I wanna move forward, um, with, with my practice, with how I incorporate, um, continuing to work with my health system and, uh, how I have my own private practice so that, that guiding Ikigai is really nice to be able to reflect on and have that be my North star.
Chrissie: That's the perfect segue. I was gonna ask you, you know, basically when you found it, what did you do with your Ikigai? Because I think that when we started working together, you had not yet opened Westlake, but you were, you were in the process, if I recall correctly. You were like, I'm, I'm moving toward this. Let's talk about it. Is this the right move?
Paul: Yes, for sure. It's something that I knew I had passion for. I didn't quite have my thumb on it, so to be able to call it something as cool as my Ikigai, um, to have it written down and to have it on paper [00:09:00] really solidified it. I think, you know, I, I could probably, I've was in my acupuncture training and I incorporated it into my medical practice for a good 16 years and probably five years. Um, it, I, I've been just letting it brew for five years and finally I said, you know, this is. Something that has to materialize. Not just a a wish or a dream or a passion project or a retirement hobby, but, but my true ikigai.
Chrissie: Yeah. And some of that is about deciding and we can decide things, um, with a lot more confidence when we have a thought partner, um, when there is a little bit of support and around our decision that we have a, a, a body double or a brain double, if you will, just to be like, this is a good idea, right? I'm not crazy, right? Like somebody outside of my head just like check in with me. Um, and now you have Westlake Integrative Medicine, which is a beautiful part-time practice, and you also [00:10:00] still get to serve elders, um, through your medical work, um, which I know is important to you and something that you're highly skilled at.
Paul: Yes, yes. Uh, yeah, I, I haven't quite found the right mix of, of what I wanna do, but, uh, I, I just, uh, opened up the practice September of 2024, the Westlake Integrative Medicine as, uh, you may wanna call it, a micro practice, one day a week on Fridays. And just this month I, um, increased it to two days a week. So I'm, I'm, I'm slowly making that transition and it feels good right now.
Chrissie: Because I have the advantage of knowing a bit about your backstory, and because we have already discussed sharing it here today, I wanna invite you to take us back in time a little bit to before you really knew about acupuncture, um, and tell us about your journey as a physician, as a physician with burnout, [00:11:00] and a physician who found acupuncture in a surprising way.
Paul: Yeah. Thanks for giving me that space to share my story. I, I, I've been listening to your i'm solving for Joy Podcast and a lot of your guest speakers, um, have been funny, uh, amusing, entertaining, you know, um, I, I thought I would give it a, a bit, uh, you know, that burnout, maybe a little bit of TCM TCM is traditional Qinese medicine. I think there's some, ways to reframe the, uh, the burnout model using, using some TCM. Uh, but maybe I'll share a little bit of my story.
So I you know, I, I moved to Portland in 2002 when I learned, when I joined a large medical system. And, um, back then I remember it was kind of like, uh, a very family run type of, uh, practice. And I joined as an internal medicine, primary care practice. Um. It was certainly fun, you know, very busy. I wouldn't, I, no regrets. I would do it again. But, you know, over the, [00:12:00] you know, within about five years, I, I grew my panel to over a thousand patients and I loved my patients. They loved me back. And, and you know, they, I, I still think they taught me so much, but unfortunately I didn't have the skills. I don't, you know, back in 2002, I don't remember burnout being so prevalent and people didn't really talk about it, at least in my circles. On top of that, a lot of my colleagues were male internal medicine male colleagues, and we just, I think that culture was just show up to work, don't complain too much and get your work done.
Um, so looking back, it was kind of this male, I. Medical doctor, community, everyone was very well respected, very well educated, and kind of, I was like, I felt privileged to be there. Like, wow, I'm with these guys and I get to be one of the colleagues. But we didn't talk about our emotions looking back. And um, you know, unfortunately about five years into this practice, I suffered from a severe mental and emotional burnout.[00:13:00]
You know, um, I think I could go into some, some of the details, but essentially. Um, it was a moment, a very precise moment in time during clinic where I was overworked, sleep deprived, too much on my plate, and I, my body literally just got ungrounded, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. And I, I actually had to go to the emergency room that day 'cause I just felt so ungrounded and my colleagues were thinking, you know, Dr. Something's not right with you. And, and it, and it took a while to recover from that. It was a big shock to my system, you know? My colleagues, my friends were like, wow, Dr. Yutan you know, Paul, you've been the calmest person we know. This is so shocking to us to see you in this state.
Chrissie: Mm-hmm. It was really out of the blue. Right. And basically you just kind of like lost touch with full reality.
Paul: Yeah, I remember feeling like it was a, a [00:14:00] dream. I was literally floating around clinic that day and just kind of in this weird trance-like dream-like state that this kind of vibrational energy was vibrating at a very high frequency and I couldn't understand it. And, and, and it took a while. So that, that healing journey looking back, took a while. I was, fortunately work gave me time off work to recuperate. I had a good team of, um, care providers, um, and they gave me the grace to really take time off work, um, and kind of get grounded again.
Chrissie: Um, so you got the support that you needed.
Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And that's where I discovered acupuncture. Um, you know, I. I was doing all the Western medicine could do for me and, and, and, and that was a lot. It was definitely a lot, you know, it was the therapy, the medication, but nothing quite felt settled. Something felt wrong still. And I was like, there's [00:15:00] gotta be something that that's, and, and I had not known much about acupuncture at that point.
I remember going online and looking up. Acupuncture, um, practice. I found one that had really good ratings and, and went for my first visit. And, and it was really during that first visit that I discovered the healing nature of how acupuncture could help me. I think she understood what I went through with a little bit of a different vocabulary, you know, with this energy vocabulary that they learn in acupuncture school. And it, and it. It really normalized what I went through. I thought it was very much an abnormal psychotic episode. I, and, and to hear, um, words that normalize that, and then not only that, but tools, how to get better, um, was a, a healing process. And it was my first time getting acupuncture. Mm. And I remember that vibrational energy that always was there [00:16:00] for.
A few months and never quite came down to my own frequencies. I, I, I didn't know how to describe it then, but I remember there were these points on my back and these points on my back were just vibrating with such intense frequency that I felt them shedding. And within 30 minutes of that, my, my vibrational energy slowed and I felt calm for the first time inside.
Chrissie: What was your physician brain thinking on that acupuncture table?
Paul: You know, I think it, even, it, uh, the, the needles were vibrating. I remember I could feel them pulsating with my heart and, uh, and they were probably vibrating. And I was asking my acupunctures, are they actually vibrating? Oh, yeah. I usually don't see this.
I think I'll, I think I'm gonna sit here instead of just leaving you. I'm just gonna sit here, type my notes. And I think I'll just be here with you just to be sure you're okay.
Chrissie: Good choice, right?
Paul: [00:17:00] Yeah, I said something else is going on here that I can't explain with my medical school knowledge, but I feel better, and something was getting fixed on a deep sense.
Chrissie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really resonate with that description. And um, and also the conundrum that our simple minds find themselves in. When we are faced with a technology or a healing modality that is simply outside the box that we've been told exists, you know, for many years, for many years, Western medicine and still in some circles, um, you know, acupuncture is uh, it's looked down on, or it's, you know, very much an area for skepticism and yet it's been practiced as an art and science for thousands of thousands of years. Um, I've [00:18:00] been, you know, I was lucky enough to find a traditional acupuncturist in Houston, Texas in the mid to late nineties. That was my first experience of acupuncture.
Um, and it was me seeking treatment for asthma. And, um, I don't remember his name anymore. Um. But he would prescribe traditional Qinese herbs after the needling treatment. And he had one of these, like, it was a, it was kind of like a sketchy office and a, like a, an office building that. Was not like highly aesthetic. Okay. And his, his office was full of, like, he had a shelf full of cigarette packs, um, because he had helped so many people quit smoking, so they would just like leave their cigarettes behind. That was, that was kind of like the lore behind the shelf, which I thought was amusing, but not, again, very aesthetic.
Um, and then he would send me to the TCM [00:19:00] pharmacy or herbarium, if you will. Um, and I would get this little. A paper bag of dehydrated like mushrooms and rhizomes and, you know, um, unrecognizable entities that I would go home and then boil for however long and make this god awful tea that I would have to then drink three times a day.
I'm so glad that we have encapsulated Qinese herbs now because the real thing was really quite a across to bear you guys. Um, yeah. But it did help me symptomatically with my very outta control asthma at that time.
Paul: Absolutely. I, I, I hear you. I'll, I'll, uh, my acupuncturist, her name is Lisa may, if you're listening, Lisa, you are a blessed soul. You saved my life. Really? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, she, she had a home practice, out in, in Portland at a cute little home. And she had a back office space that was so [00:20:00] grounded and aesthetic. And, uh, she just gave me time. I remember I think that first visit ran over two hours and she talked about energy and we call it she, and she called it, she stagnation and she disruption.
Um. She talked about how she could right away tell that I was this empathetic soul. She called me and she, and you know how my patients loved me for it, you know, they came and I remember, you know, just from that patient and doctor relationship, they really loved me for it. But she also told me that empathetic soul of mine attracted some really negative energy. Um, you know, patients, um themselves. And, and I, I was never taught that language in medical school. That language of how to protect myself from others and their negative energy, I, I wor, I learned of words like energy hygiene, cutting, energetic cords and grounding and, and it was like [00:21:00] going to kindergarten, you know, learning these things. And I, I wanted to learn 'em. I practice them every day. And that was certainly part of my, my healing journey as well. I.
Chrissie: Do you use, um, those energy hygiene practices now when you see patients routinely? I wonder if there, if there are like simple descriptions of energy hygiene practices that other caring empaths, um, and caregivers in general might benefit from hearing about.
Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think when, as a, I have to be very mindful of it now as I'm working with, with, you know, my hands and the acupuncture needles and the energy work of acupuncture. Um, yeah, that energy hygiene, um, it's probably second nature to me by now, but if I had to put three top things would be I'm really addicted to like washing my hands with really, really cold water after treatment. And just mindfully [00:22:00] just washing my hands and not using a towel, just kind of shaking my hands. You might see this on the video of just kind of shaking the water off. Mm-hmm. And kind of like that, the water comes off, the energy comes off, so does the energy. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm.
So that I, I do, um, you know, before I start with patients, I. Um, have them ready in the room. But before I enter and knock on the door, I, I take some grounding breaths and ground myself. Um, for sure. So, I've, I ground my space. I, I ground my space, um, before and after each patient as a, as a nice way to ground my, my room.
Chrissie: And what is grounding yourself in your space look like? Like is it just closing your eyes and imagining your feet and feeling the contact on the ground? Or, um, what is, what is the action that is involved? If somebody were like watQing you, what would they see you do? I.
Paul: They probably wouldn't see me doing [00:23:00] anything as far if, if grounding myself they may see me taking some full breaths in and out, um, maybe closing my eyes and, uh, just taking that time. Even, even with sometimes with patients, I'm like, let's, that was a lot of information. Let's, let's both take some, some breaths with that and you know, that was a lot of information. Let's, let's process that and just together do that together. Yeah. That's what they may see. Mm-hmm.
Chrissie: I have a sense of that in, you know, my own practices from, from being a physician and also from many years ago being a massage therapist, um, where I was working with my hands. And also very, very keen to wash in very cold water. Um, and take that time to sort of disconnect from the energy bubble that we have been sharing in that interaction.
But as you alluded to, helping people kind of go back to kindergarten, so they have some very like basic steps to follow if they, if they don't have an automatic [00:24:00] internalized sense of what it means to ground. It feels kind of like clearing your own energy bubble. It feels like, um, like what a deep breath does for your body. Get rid of waste, bring in nourishing oxygen. And it can come with thoughts. Um, it can come with slowing down. It sort of feels like reconnecting to yourself.
And as it's called grounding, there's also, um, as we ground electricity to the earth, we ground ourselves to the earth. We are, you know, electromagnetic fields ourselves. And when we ground ourselves to the earth, there is um, there is benefit there. And depending on how. To attuned your, your sensory perception is you can sort of feel, when you're grounded and when you're not grounded and excessively upwardly, displaced, uh, over intellectualizing [00:25:00] or wrapped up in a flurry of, stressed rapid ungrounded thought patterns. Does that resonate? Does that feel true? Is there more you would add? Yeah, for
Paul: sure. So, so since I felt such therapeutic benefit myself with grounding and I learned the tools, how to ground, and it took a few weeks and months to incorporate into my own healing journey. And now with acupuncture, um, in, in acupuncture there are, are these things called meridians. And, and so there are 12 meridians. Each meridian has a grounding point. So I, I tell my, my patients who want some simplified explanation of acupuncture, I said, I'm kind of like an electrician. You know, I'm gonna be going into your system and working with your electrical energy system, and you know what, what's a good electrician gonna do before they work on your house? They're gonna make sure everything's grounded so they don't get shocked. And so I said before we work on you almost every time I'm using acupuncture points on grounding [00:26:00] meridians before we work on the body.
Chrissie: You know, another um, corollary to that is when somebody does, uh, acupuncture on a spot that's especially activated, or there may be another word in, in your, um, parlance about it. Uh, and you feel that zing, I mean, it is, it is like an electric zing sometimes when there's a hotspot and it gets needled, right?
Paul: Yeah. And acupuncture, we call that dei, DE. Uh, space Qi, De Qi is energy. And Di Qi is that exact feeling that you talk about. You know, it's supposed to go away after a few breaths. I tell my folks, you know, if it's, yeah, if it doesn't go away after three breaths, maybe I actually hit a nerve, so please tell me I'm not exactly, I'm not here.
Chrissie: We still live in bodies, right?
Paul: But, you know, if, if it's a strong sensation that then goes and isn't so unpleasant, um, that that's actually.
In, in our school there's this De Qi or not De Qi I'm of the, that's so funny. [00:27:00] I'm of the De Qi family. I think, uh, De Qi important.
Chrissie: Um, it's a nice place to bring in the concept of integration because, um, I mean I think most, if not all acupuncturists are also like thinking about physical anatomical structures as they are treating people. Um, and you know, as a physician you are especially aware of things like, oh, yep, there's a peripheral nerve there. Oh, yep. I'm gonna needle where, you know, this other thing actually is even though you're thinking about meridians and, um, you know, relationships in TCM. What is it like to bring those things together through your own embodiment and offer an understanding that is pulling from these different wisdom and knowledge streams?
Paul: Yeah, that's a good question. I think with that, I'll say, you know, that my, my [00:28:00] first, um, treatment was Wow, fabulous. It sparked this curiosity and for me it says I need to learn more. Fortunately, there. Our good system is in place in Oregon. At least medical doctors are allowed to practice acupuncture with some training. Of course, most people go through some type of training. And, um, there are two main teachers I've, I, uh, the fortunate, um, I fortunately found Dr. Joseph Helms, who founded the American Academy of Medical Acupuncture back in the seventies, and he had a pretty robust training program, and they were all MDs M DDoS. Learning acupuncture. And so having that western mind of, we all took gross anatomy and um, and there we were learning acupuncture from square one, um, as a group, um, for six months. Um. So that, that, that started my journey after six months, I said that wasn't enough. That kind of just wedded my appetite. I need more.
And, and, um, I, I think acupuncture also was well suited to me because it's [00:29:00] certainly a tradition that was passed down from master, you know, teacher to student in, in this apprentice like style. And so that really resonated with me. I, I, I, I think that's one pearl of wisdom, whoever you are out there, listeners, those, you know, find your mentor. You know, I, I've, I've been fortunate to find several mentors, but I can count on one hand the ones that have made such big impact for me. Um, so I found some really good mentors. and, and so. With that. I think I, I can still be grounded in western medicine and anatomy and some points like a sprained ankle, um, certainly is very much anatomy and kind of cooling down a joint and, decreasing inflammation and, um, you know, bruising and swelling. Um, but some of it is more energetic. So it's, it's kind of balancing that, um, physiological. Mind body medicine to more of an energetic [00:30:00] practice. So super cool. I like doing both. Mm-hmm.
Chrissie: And we live in a moment right now where even Medicare, um, covers up to 20 acupuncture visits in a year. Although it has to be specifically for low back pain. Um, they do cover up to 20 visits a year. Um, it's a, it is a, an important. I think, you know, acknowledgement of the efficacy that yeah, this has a role
Paul: for sure, for sure. Right. Yeah. I think most of us have back pain to some degree or other, but it would be nice, I think eventually there, it, it's a good, uh, a foot in the door and I, I, I'm hoping to see that expand over the, hopefully expand into more, uh, more needs than just low back pain.
Chrissie: Absolutely. And on that note, um, I know there were a few TCM concepts that, um, pertain to, you know, the thing that we [00:31:00] refer to as burnout that would be really interesting, I think, to talk about, um, for our listeners today, one of them being the concept of Jing.
Paul: Yeah, so let me talk a little bit about Jing. Uh, J-J-I-N-G, Jing Jing is defined as vital essence, and this vital essence in traditional Qinese medicine. , The teaQing is that we were born with Jing, so it's passed down from our mothers and our fathers, and we're born with this. Uh, vital essence and, uh, this vital essence, they say governs things like growth and development and reproduction and aging. Um, it's this, you know, really deep constitutional energy. I was actually quite intrigued by it when I was learning it in the TCM model. I said, there must be some kind of medical correlation, so let's understand the TCMA little bit more. They say it's a deep constitutional energy that we're born with and can maintain throughout our lives through good, wholesome [00:32:00] food and fresh air.
And not only that, they said it is stored somewhere. They said Jing is stored in your kidneys. So, huh, that's interesting. You know, it was actually described back in 200 BC and this book called that Yellow Emperors Inner Classic, and, and they described it as this bodily fluid that's stored in the kidneys. I said, wow, that kind of sounds like epogen. You know this kidney, most
Chrissie: people hear fluid and kidney and they think, are you talking about urine? What are you talking about?
Paul: I guess from the medical per perspective, you know, this jing, this vital essence, you know, here's, uh, something called erythropoietin and it's, uh, produced and it helps stimulate the bone marrow to make more red blood cells. But I, I think Jing is more than that. It's this energetic philosophy that includes blood, bone marrow, hormones, and, um, and when studying Jing, I think the reason I, for me, it pertains to burnout. Was that, you know, here's my vital [00:33:00] essence. I, I think without knowing it subconsciously when I was practicing in the early days with this kind of empathetic soul, I, I think I was kind of not only depleting my jing, but actually giving a little bit away each and every time with patients, like without knowing it, like I didn't know. So it was almost like oversharing or over kind of depleting your Jing. Mm. So,
Chrissie: like energetic in meshing almost like
Paul: Correct maybe. Mm-hmm. Just like in my mind, I've gotta share some of that essence of mind in order to get you better. Right? Instead of saying, no, you've gotta do the work. Mm-hmm. And I'm here to educate and to help and to prescribe. But part of that early physician mentality was like, I've gotta fix you. Um, and we know that that's not healthy. So I, I think, uh, describing that Jing as this vital essence in the TCM model as they say it, it can [00:34:00] only last so long. It, you know, if you, if you deplete it, it doesn't stay forever. It's, it's not a endless resource. Um, this Jing. So you, you literally have to protect it, nourish it with idea of stress management eating well.
Chrissie: Um, so you protect it. Does that mean it's not renewable at all? I. Uh, like once, once it's gone, it's gone. Or you can kind of get some back.
Paul: Yeah. There's two types of jing. One is this one that you were born with, and then the other, uh, aspect of Jing yes, you can, you can get it back. 'cause I, I truly feel like I lost some of my jing and it took, it took a while to cultivate that back. And now, uh, I, I think, I think you can, um, bring back some of it. So it's not like you amputate your arm and your arm's gone. Right.
Chrissie: So I'm thinking about people who appear to reverse age, you know, they make a lifestyle change and the quality of their skin color changes and they're, they're, they're just different people. You can [00:35:00] sense it. Um, that feels like maybe a, a, a readable reflection of Jing. I also love that you like, described it as constitutional, like it's like what we call good genes. You know, like, oh, you got good genes for that. Or you know, like there's something about vitality times good genes, but it's, um, maybe a little more ethereal.
Paul: True. Right, right. So if you were born with bad genes, um, you still have that essential jing and, uh, even more reason to make sure it doesn't get depleted and just being aware that it's there and,
Chrissie: um, yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm having a flashback to my pulmonology professor at Baylor College of Medicine, Dr. Sheila. Somebody's gonna tell me what her last name is 'cause I can't come to me. She would say, some people just have bad protoplasm. She was talking about basically like people just, some people just don't have a lot of resilience and um, [00:36:00] if we were looking at that through a TCM lens, we'd just say they had low jing, you say? Yeah, something.
Paul: Right. So well like different language. Um, but maybe same concept for sure. Yeah, I see that quite a bit. It's like, okay, different language, but same concept.
Chrissie: In medical training. You know, we can't, we're not nourishing ourselves with good sleep, that's for sure. We're not nourishing ourselves with good, um, food for the most part except for here and there. And we are exposing ourselves to, um, trauma, to, um you know, like just a lot of extreme conditions. Um, and that's in training. Of course, practice is its own story, but I, I understand, uh, experientially how, you know, practicing in difficult circumstances or overworking or overextending ourselves in our work could certainly, affect this, this entity.
Paul: Right, right. And, and when your jing [00:37:00] is depleted, um, they actually have a prescription. So, you know, TCM says, okay, when your Jing is depleted, here's the prescription. You know, rest, avoid stress. Those, those are, easy to say, hard to do. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the, the ones that are, are kind of put to practice pretty quickly is the diet. So they say when your Jing is depleted, um, for sure they're saying avoid cold beverages. So avoid ice in your water. Avoid raw and uncooked vegetables. Instead, cook your vegetables in a broth or soup, uh, avoid ice cream. Um, and the idea there, it, it's, it's just an old TCM tradition that's been passed down. Um, my, my, my medical thinking of that is, you know, as your Qi your Qi is depleted, as your jing is depleted. It takes a lot of energy to chew that celery stick and then incorporate that celery into energy. It may be easier if that celery [00:38:00] is cooked in broth. Yeah. And, um, easier to digest.
Um, so it's quite funny, like during our teaQing, you know, we have a, we go out to lunch and. Our, our group of lunch includes, you know, quite an international crowd, but everyone's like, no, no, no, no ice water for every, everyone here, just room temperature, water, please. Because as doctors we were all feeling like, I think we're all kind of jing depleted, uh, coming into this. So learning some, yeah, some, some easy, easy dietary advice.
Chrissie: Yeah, there's something intuitive that resonates with me about that, although I'll tell you that I really enjoy very cold beverage, so.
Paul: Well, you must have very strong Jing, so if your, if your Jing is strong, uh, that doesn't apply so much. Yeah,
Chrissie: I, I think I come by some, some pretty high jing from my family. Um, there's, uh, there is another idea we were gonna talk about Stomach Qi. [00:39:00]
Paul: Yeah, stomach. Stomach Qi is, um, they, they talk about, so Qi is energy and stomach Qi is not just your stomach, but they talk about kind of the stomach energy and, uh, talk about meridians. And for us it's more like points to choose to help folks with either IBS or um, inflammatory bowel disease. But I, I think for the audience here today, um just that idea, that stomach Qi. I think for me what it resonates with is another concept in acupuncture is, is really the idea that, you know, uh, an orally passed down tradition from teachers. And so one, one of my mentors, her name's Kiko Matsumoto, she's Japanese, she's a pretty well renowned, um, acupuncturist and teacher.
Um, but her teacher was, uh, master nano. Master Nano was a blind, um, acupuncturist in Japan. And, uh, from my understanding, um, in Japan, they, they took the blind and often wanted to train them in something. So [00:40:00] acupuncture was, uh, a really well positioned trade for these blind folks in Japan. And, uh, so master nano, he strongly believed in the stomach Qi. And the, the story is, is that, you know, on his deathbed, he's telling his students, you know, don't forget your stomach qi.
And, and he had a prescription of how to quickly test it. It was by checking the pulse and TCM we do pulse diagnosis and, um, there's a, on the right pulse if the pulse is not flowing and. we, we call it a, a lack of a stomach Qi and, and he had some, a, a good prescription of points to get the stomach Qi flowing. And I, I've used that time and time again. I've, I've looked for a lack of stomach q and if it's not there, it's, it's so fascinating to me I that, uh, certain points taught by master nano brings the stomach qi back to normal. Repeatable on pulse [00:41:00] taking. And that, not only that, but just the patient feels better. All of a sudden they go from, you know, severe chronic constipation to, you know, patient comes back and Doc, I, I just had a gold star bowel movement last night after you fixed my Stomach Qi Uh,
Chrissie: that's amazing. How long does that stay, um, kind of quote unquote fixed after a single treatment like that? Is that a hard question to answer? I don't even know if that's a question.
Paul: Yeah, it, it's not. It's certainly not a one-time fix by any means. I think we have to kind of take a deeper dive into why the stomach Qi is weak in the first place. Yeah. And, uh. Yeah, that, that kind of brings me back to, you know, what, why is the stomach Qi so weak in these, in these folks? I, I met, uh, we, we had this kind of nerdy discussion with the, with the group that I'm, uh, in every year.
And, uh, one of the docs, I talked to her, she's a integrative pediatrician, functionally medicine trained, board certified pediatrician, uh, Dr. Um, URI, [00:42:00] and we were talking about this and, uh she was getting burnt out because she was seeing more and more autistic kids in her practice. And um, you know, she was saying these kids would have very weak stomach Qi. Um, she didn't necessarily do the points I was talking about, but the way she, you know, the way she fixed it was she took these kids off gluten and off dairy completely and she, you know, she was telling me her jaw drop the first time when moms came back and says, you know, my kid went from a nonverbal autistic kid to putting, you know, five words together and now, you know, putting three sentences together. This was repeated, you know, uh, so she put out this, um, I'll put it in the link, but she put out this call to action, um, YouTube about our broken system, our broken food system. And, uh, in her practice, she, she kind of fixes this weak stomach Qi with, um, with a, a more whole wholesome diet. Um, she talks about how there's too much, um, [00:43:00] industrialized farming, too much pesticides in our food system, and, talking about how a gluten-free, dairy-free diet really helped her panel of kids with autism. Yeah.
Chrissie: Interesting. Um, I am really intrigued and have been for, I. Oh, about 20 years with experiences of NAET. It stands for nambu Pods Allergy Elimination Technique. Um, and I discovered a while back that you have some training in NAET, um, and can treat people in this way. And I'll give you my, um, my physician slash layperson, uh, understanding. Um, I always preface it, you know, historically as a, you know, integrative physician in primary care practice, I would tell people about NAET and I would always preface it with, you know, it sounds really kind of magical and a little bit woo, but I've said it [00:44:00] before and I'll say it again. Woo, for me means wildly open outcomes.
So we may not understand how it works, or at least I don't. But it involves, um, you know, some applied kinesiology testing where you're holding a vial of something to test if you are actually sensitive to it. And you may already know that you are, but it's, it's blinded so you don't necessarily know what you're holding. Um. Only the acupuncturist therapist does. And, um, once it's identified what you're sensitive to, that kind of gets noted down. And then one by one in a particular order, you go through desensitization and each treatment basically just looks like an acupuncture treatment, but you're holding this vial that you're desensitizing to in one hand, and then you, you know, very diligently avoid exposure or physical contact with that item for 24 hours.
And then you're. Boom. Like no longer sensitive to it like it's supposed to be kind of a one and done thing. And my first experience of it was with a, just [00:45:00] a friend in Houston who saw somebody who had this, she was extremely sensitive to sugar. Like she would get migraines, she would have many physical symptoms, she could not tolerate sugar, and it was kind of bumming her out and she had a treatment and suddenly she could have dessert like anybody else. And it sounds kind of like not a big deal, but for her, it was a quality of life boost for sure.
Um, in my own experience during our fertility journey, um, acupuncture was thi, you know, a thing I used a lot, but in the NAET realm. We were like, okay, so we're just gonna work on anything that comes up. And she had me put a bowl of water in my bedroom to collect the particular milieu of dust and allergens in my sleeping space because at that point my asthma was still quite active. I would sleep with a rescue inhaler under my pillow or on my bedside table 'cause I needed rescue inhalers still that often. And after treating this [00:46:00] milieu of dust mites and whatever, with NAET, I literally cannot even tell you when was the last time I needed an inhaler. Like, it's been years since I needed an inhaler regularly that I keep a round outta habit, but I literally do not have asthma anymore. And I was on like steroid control back in the day I was on theophylline, like all the things.
So that's my testimony about NAAT. And so when somebody comes to me or tells me about a food sensitivity especially, or you know environmental allergens. I am always like, Ooh, I want you to go to an NAET practitioner. But I don't think they're always easy to find. So after that long introduction, um, what do you have to share about NAET?
Paul: Oh my goodness. I, this was not planned, Chrissie. I'm so glad you brought that up. It was in my initial training, it was in 2008 Helms Medical Institute. We went down to Tempe, Arizona, [00:47:00] um, about four times in that six months. And the rest were book learning and we'd come back and say, okay, this is what we learned. And I, I, I got to be really good friends with this pathologist. His name is, uh, Roy, Roy Nabu pod. And I was like, Roy, what are you doing here? You're, you're a pathologist. You don't, you don't see patients. You know, you, you see 'em when they're dead. But, you know, I kind of give, I, I give them a hard time. You just see their tissue.
Yes. But you know, Roy Bupa and he was basically like, do you know my mom? I'm like, no. It's like, you should meet my mom. She's pretty genius not to brag. And, uh, and, and back then, um, we were sharing stories of my son Noah, who's now. 16 and he w he, he was born an allergy baby. I swear. He was bloated, swollen, eyes shut, almost nasal congestion coming out of every orifice in his, um, mouth and nose. And he basically said, you need to go see my mom. 'cause you know, Noah would, would get better. And, and he did.
So, [00:48:00] you know, Roy is the son of the founder of NAET and a ET stands for BU Pod Allergy Elimination Technique. And Roy is still quite active to this day, um, promoting NAET. He actually stepped down from being a. Medical doctor for just a bit and went to law school. I'm like, Roy, what are you doing? He's like, well, I, I've gotta really, my mom started NAT and it's wonderful, but I, I'm here now to make it legitimate to, you know, take the woo out of it to make it more acceptable 'cause, uh, you know, it just is helping so many people and a lot of folks don't, go to it. 'Cause if, if you look it up, it's, you know, unfortunately early on it had some negative presses being a little bit too woo and not grounded in science.
Uh, but so he, he's really out to kind of ground it more in science and publishing these papers. Going back to autism, just, uh, during our last convention, I I told, uh, the [00:49:00] pediatrician, I said, you, you've gotta meet Roy. You know, you and him are both doing this awesome work in autism. One's doing it by, making these changes in the diet. And here, NAET with, uh, Devi na Mud Pod, you know, she's, you know, got a huge paper that they're about to publish on autism and NAET. So I, I, you know, I love making those connections and they're, uh, they're getting together and, um, talking more. I think, you know, she's gonna be able to definitely get more patients onto this, um, study so that he can get more, um, robust data behind that, uh, paper he is trying to publish. I.
Chrissie: That is awesome. If there is anything that, you know, I, or solving for Joy podcasts can do to help, um, accelerate that work, I am here for that. 'cause I, I see it as so valuable. And while it's difficult to describe, using, you know, our limited paradigm of understanding, you know, material materialist methods? Um, I [00:50:00] think it's in the quantum field. I think that it's just a little beyond our ability to understand and we're sort of accidentally using something that works that we can't yet describe, not accidentally. Right. It's on purpose. Yeah. So, so, you know,
Paul: yeah. Ro Roy's my friend and, and uh, you know, we'd go out for dinner and I'm like, okay, Roy, you're, you're a pathologist. I'm an int internist. Uh, just break down for me, what, what, what, what's up with this? NAT This was early on, right. You know, G give me, what is this it? And, and he goes, Paul, uh, I can't really explain it. It is just, you know, it's, it's one word. It's energy, you know, it's energy. Mm-hmm. And, and, um, so as you well described, it's,
um, it's, you know, holding a vial. You know, Debbie, herself, wa, was quite ill when she was in her late twenties and, uh, had to go on a pretty restrictive diet. She said, you know, for months all she could eat was rice and that, you know, anything else besides rice, she would get sick quite violently, was losing all this weight. So she studied everything she could, you [00:51:00] know, she was a medical doctor. She went to go study acupuncture, um, Qiropractic, um, muscle testing, um, all of these tools to really help herself. And with that is how she discovered the NAET.
Chrissie: I can't help but see the parallels where, you know, our trials and tribulations, the wounded healer archetype are often what lead us to our most purposeful work in the world. For you, if you hadn't had a mental health crisis, you might not have ever found how much you love acupuncture and using that as part of your healing expression. You know, if I hadn't been through various trials and tribulations with my own body, whether it's, you know, my, my history with, um, Qildhood tuberculosis, or my teenage eating disorder or pain from disc herniation or infertility, like each of these things has informed my work as a healer. Um, [00:52:00] and I, I wouldn't be any of these places without having walked through those particular paths
Paul: for sure. I,
Chrissie: so same for her and same for so many of us who are in the healing fields. Like we use our own healing as traction to, um, to amplify.
Paul: So I can't explain it, but I, I've got so many stories of, of ones, uh, that were great. I, you know, I, I do a lot of geriatric practice and, um, I've got this one gal with severe onion allergy. She lives in a adult foster home. And, uh, it drove the foster home crazy. They just could not even buy, cook, have any onions in the home. And, you know, it was this African . American, uh, own place and they loved cooking with onions and, but, uh, because she was there, they, they honored her and didn't cook anything with onions.
But once in a while they would sneak something in there and, and she'd come with me and have terrible headaches and lasting for weeks. [00:53:00] Even with just a, a slight sniff of onions being cooked, they'd have to put like towels in the door just so the onions wouldn't seep through her door. Wow. Wow. So I did NAET on her, uh, about four sessions. The final one culminated in, okay, bring an onion in a glass jar like a, you know, a Tupperware. Seal it up and we'll, we'll find, you know, I think you're ready. It's our fourth treatment. I think we're ready to clear your onion allergy. And they can now cook what she can't eat onions. She, she still doesn't want to eat 'em, but, uh, the house can now cook onions for, for other people in the foster home.
Chrissie: Wow. I am curious because I can't help myself. Like if you had more clearings, if that would get more clear for her, but
Paul: for sure. So thank thank you for spurring that on. Um, one of Roy's things is, you know, Paul, you learned NAET back in the ice Hs he calls it, and now it's this kind of really robust, um, program and, uh, they've learned a lot and he's encouraging me [00:54:00] to Yeah. So it's essentially, yes, you're right. If, if you, you have to go through these kind of 12 steps of clearing each micronutrient. Mm-hmm. Um, but I talked to him about the case and he's like, I bet you can get her this. Eat onions, but you definitely, you know, I was, I wanted kind of get a quick bang for her buck and I wasn't sure if she was, be vested in 12 treatments. Um,
Chrissie: so that's the, that's the rate limiting step for referrals. And it's the rate limiting step for, for NAET probably in general is that people may not know unless they're, until they're told that it's a, you know, it's a prolonged commitment because there are these little steps before you get to the thing that you're most excited about clearing for sure. Yeah. Um, and each appointment you know, is an investment and, um, maybe, maybe there's a world in which there's more, more coverage for that kind of thing. Um, flexible savings accounts and HSAs and things like that. But I digress.
Paul: Thank you for bringing that up. I, I, it's something that I, I am, um. [00:55:00] Doing and, and now that I'm in my practice, I'm more comfortable doing back in my, uh, the bigger medical system. I was mm-hmm. Not so comfortable. I felt there was a bit of like, kind of, um, handcuffs there about kind of what type of acupuncture to practice, but now that I'm on my own, it's, it's, I feel a a lot more liberated to really offer more of a robust, um, NAET, uh, acupuncture, including NAET.
Chrissie: I love that. So anybody listening who's in the Portland area, you need NAET. Go to Westlake Integrative Medicine, check it out. Um, Paul, I'm so glad that you are in my community, um, and, and I know that community's really important to you. Um, you wanna say a few things about that before we close out?
Paul: Yeah, I, I think, you know, part of my burnout, um, years ago, what was in finding community. Um, through, Chrissie's group through coaQing, you know, meeting up at her home and, and having a community, uh, [00:56:00] really, um, for me it was my medical acupuncture community. I think, shout out to the A A MA American Academy of Metal Acupuncture for putting on such robust, you know, journals every month. Um, these annual symposiums and, uh, you know, just, uh a great place for collaboration with, uh, my colleagues. I, I, I don't miss that. That's one thing I'll do every year to feed my soul. Um, but I, I think community is, is something I think we're missing in our broken medical system and I think a path forward of how we can restore it and revive it and, uh, you know, bring the energy back to medicine.
Chrissie: Yes. Bring the, the stomach Qi and the jing back to the body of medicine.
Paul: Absolutely.
Chrissie: Thank you so much for spending this time with me today, Paul. I imagine that, um, there are many people who will benefit from all the things that you've shared especially the generous share about your own personal journey through [00:57:00] difficulty. Can't wait to talk to you again soon.
Paul: Thank you so much, Chrissie
Chrissie: Thank you again to Dr. Paul Yutan for this honest, generous conversation about coaQing energy medicine and what it really means to ground ourselves in the work we were born to do. I hope this episode offered you a fresh way to think about healing purpose and the spark that might be flickering underneath your own story.
Next week, I will be joined by my dear friend, Dr. Santi Tanikella an integrative pediatrician, coach, and host of the I Am Well MD podcast. We will talk about nervous system science, family dynamics, and the power of small shifts to change everything. She even leads us in a beautiful guided meditation. So stay through the end. You won't wanna miss it.
If something in today's episode stirred something in you. I'd love to talk. I am a [00:58:00] physician coach, and whether you're in the thick of something or standing at a crossroads, it would be my honor to help you find your next aligned step. One of the ways I work with people is through the program 12 by 12 remastered. It is as a hybrid group and individual coaQing experience with a curriculum that helps you reconnect with your own energy, values and joy. But everyone's journey is different. And I'll be glad to meet you wherever you are. You can schedule a free exploratory call anytime the link is in the show notes [email protected].
And as a reminder, I am a doctor, but not your doctor. Everything shared here is in the spirit of connection and joy, not medical or professional advice. If you're a coach, healer, or change maker looking for community, we are gathering in November at the Physician CoaQing Summit. You can find all the details at the physician coaQing summit.com. We'd love to have you join us.
And if today's episode made [00:59:00] you pause, reflect or think of someone who might need to hear it, please forward it to them. That's how this work ripples outward. One conversation at a time. And as always, so much gratitude to our creative team, Kelsey Vaughn, our amazing producer, Alyssa Wilkes, Shelby Bracken, Denys Kyshchuck, and to my partner in life, Sue. And thank you for being here. May you feel grounded in your own wisdom and find a little joy even in the places you weren't expecting it. We'll see you next time, friends.
