Chrissie Ep 39 (Kelly)
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Kelly: [00:00:00] Belonging is fundamental. It's fundamental to our wellbeing. We all have to be connected in a meaningful way to other human beings.
Chrissie: we can't make other people create belonging for us. We can long for belonging. But I love that idea of creating it ourselves. and the art of assuming belonging, If you can assume that you belong, the environment may just rise up to meet you.
Kelly: I can be happy and still joyful. I can be struggling and joyful. I can be in pain and still joyful. So I see joy as in motion, but more of a value that walks alongside me during every course or every piece of my life
Chrissie: You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your [00:01:00] host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello, friends, and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so honored to welcome my dear friend, Dr. Kelly Holder to the podcast today. Kelly is a clinical psychologist, speaker, and a deeply grounded leader in the space of mental health and wellbeing. She currently serves as the Chief Wellbeing Officer at the Warren Albert Medical School of Brown University in Providence Front island where she's guiding institutional change with clarity, compassion, and courage. She's someone who walks the walk bringing faith, integrity, and lived experiences into the spaces where healing and growth are most needed. From her early work in behavioral medicine to her leadership in med schools across the country, Kelly's dedicated her career to helping others move from burnout to restoration.
In today's conversation, we're gonna talk about what it means to show up for yourself to claim joy [00:02:00] and to be there for your community, especially in a world that doesn't always make it so easy, we're gonna share practical wisdom, deep insight, and her warm presence that feels both grounding and inspiring. And one of the things you might not know about Kelly, my friend Kelly, is that she has incredible taste in fashionable eyeglasses. So we like to call it face jewelry. Um. I like her so much. I'm so glad that you guys get to meet her too. Welcome, Kelly. Thanks for being here today.
Kelly: Yeah, thanks for inviting me. It's a privilege and an honor to share space with you in this room.
Chrissie: Oh, I deeply feel the same way, so. We are gonna talk about solving for joy today. And um, a fun fact is that when you got up from your chair, I saw that the sign behind you is about bold, unbridled joy. I love that you have that hanging in your office.
Yeah. [00:03:00] Tell me about your relationship to joy.
Kelly: Joy. I, I absolutely love talking about joy. Joy. I see joy as a, a value. So it's something I carry with me. I like to tell people in the morning I dress for joy. Um, I want joy to be present as I make choices and decisions. Um, joy is, it's. It's a centering or anchoring presence in my life. Um, and there's so many things we could say about joy, but I, in this moment, I just wanna share that I, I absolutely love talking about it and it is the thing that pretty much is an anchor to how I exist and how I try to show up in the world
Chrissie: that checks out. I totally feel like that tracks. I remember the first time that we spoke at, um, a, you know, physician [00:04:00] wellness conference. I was just like, I wanna talk to this person. I feel the joy. It's delightful.
Kelly: It's, it's good to hear that you, um, hear that feedback.
Chrissie: Yeah. Yeah. I also really resonate with the idea of dressing for joy. Um, I mean, sure, some days more than others, but like. Fashion is, um, a, a congruent expression, right? It's like one of the ways that we choose self-expression and when we can do it with a little glee, a little joy, a little delight. Um, it's a life affirming choice.
Kelly: I would agree. And there's something about looking at yourself in the mirror and feeling just. Feeling like what you have chosen to put on expresses how you feel. I, I love that feeling.
Chrissie: Fun. So was [00:05:00] there a time when you, like, became more metacognitive aware that joy was a value in an anchoring, grounding presence?
Kelly: Yeah. Um, it, it may sound counterintuitive, but the time in which I started to really understand the power of, of joy was during a very difficult time period of my life. I was, um, struggling with a multitude of things and life felt extra heavy. And it was during this season that I started trying to study and understand what joy means and, um.
My faith and religious background is really important for me, so studying and understanding what joy meant in a spiritual context as well. And it was in this difficult season that I started practicing and accessing joy on a regular [00:06:00] basis and saying this out loud. In this moment it's like. Oftentimes when we think about joy and think about people being joyful, we think a lot about the good times and the wonderful things that are happening. Um, but in my experience, learning what Joy meant had a lot to do with me navigating difficulty and trying to understand what's the anchoring for my life, what makes most sense? And it was during that time that I. The ideals and principles around joy. And from that standpoint, I couldn't, I couldn't then release them. I had to keep holding onto them because it, it did become a real great anchoring point for me.
Chrissie: That is really interesting. What if, if you remember, you know, details, um, I'm so curious about the underpinnings from your study of joy that, stood out to you? I mean, joy is certainly part of [00:07:00] praise language, um, but it's also so much more.
Kelly: Yeah. So, you know, I've come to find that, of course, joy and happiness, I see them as different. Some people like to put them in the same bucket. I see them as different and joy really, um, in, in my study and understanding has a lot to do with, um, where we place our hope and what we can experience in the presence of pain. And so um, I see joy as something that can always be present even though I'm having these, all these other experiences so I can be happy and still joyful. I can be struggling and joyful. I can be in pain and still joyful. So I see joy as definitely in, in [00:08:00] motion, but more of a value that walks alongside me during every course or every piece of my life and a lot of my joy is rooted in, in my spiritual beliefs, my beliefs of God, that really help me, um, hold on to the hopefulness I have about who I am, what life can become, but also the goodness that exists at the same time of the pain, hardship, struggle, and difficulties that are, are ever present are always around us.
Chrissie: Yeah, it's very non-dualistic what you're describing that, you know, one circumstance does not negate another opposing circumstance that they, they exist at the same time and they do not, um, countermand one another necessarily.
Um, also, um, like in your words, I'm linking [00:09:00] joy really to awareness. Like awareness is the, the sky that we can see and the circumstances that appear in the sky are like the clouds or the weather that's, that's passing through. And when I think of, you know, the way you're describing joy, it reminds me that, you know, joy is available in our awareness no matter what clouds or weather are happening.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree with that for sure.
Chrissie: Yeah. So we got to know each other because of, uh, networks of doing wellbeing work and as Chief Wellbeing Officer at the Medical School Brown University, um, you know, it's a, it's a big job. It's an important job for many. It's kind of a dream job. Uh, and this thing doesn't happen automatically or overnight. So I would love to learn more about your, um, story. How you [00:10:00] came to do this important wellbeing focused work?
Kelly: Yeah. Uh, my story, well, everyone's story is unique, so clearly it's mine, so it's uniquely mine. As, uh, you mentioned in my bio, I am trained as a clinical psychologist. Um, my specialty is in health, so I'm a health psychologist by training. I did, um. my postdoctoral training at Harbor UCLA in, um, Southern California and focusing on HIV women's health. I did some work in a adolescent medicine clinic and when I finished that, um, postdoc experience, I got my first job out out of school. Um, it was actually first jobs. I did a couple of things. I worked at a va, I taught at a community college. I also had a job. Oh. I worked in, um, a state [00:11:00] hospital. So I was just, I was just trying to work.
Chrissie: You were collecting experiences, friend.
Kelly: Yes, for sure. And I'm, I have stories from all of those realms, but one thing that happened, um, as the years progressed is that I had this opportunity to have some opportunities to work in college counseling centers. I have to share that because, maybe about 10 years ago I was given this opportunity, or I had the opportunity to apply for a position that would allow me to start a counseling center in a medical school. So I've had this training as a health psychologist. I've worked in college counseling centers, I've worked in hospital settings.
I've worked in state hospital institutions. And so I brought all that knowledge, um, into this possibility of getting this job. And I got, I landed the job. So that was exciting. But what I didn't [00:12:00] understand at the time, and I now know, is that by building a mental health and counseling center for medical students, um, and the ways in which I went about doing that, so we supported our medical students and we had graduate students and nursing students. But in building that, I found that in order to keep those students well, we needed to make sure we were supporting our faculty and staff and, um, supporting, uh, our clerkship directors and supporting our residency directors and our residents. And so while my work in building that didn't allow me to do that in particular, I built some bridges to each of those programs, some training to help them better identify and support the folks that they were taking care of things that aid them being able to see students and caring for them better.
And over time that office grew, I was able to, they [00:13:00] gave me more responsibility and that office grew and I was able to take care of our residents and then eventually our faculty. And it was, in doing that work and then working alongside with our hospital systems, that really set me up for the work that I do now. And so I, I counted a privilege to have this role. And I got here because of all the work I did at different levels, primarily starting with mental health support. But we know when we start supporting folks' mental health, we start supporting other areas of individual's wellbeing because it all kind of converges sometimes onto mental health. So that's a little bit about how I landed in in this role.
Chrissie: I love looking back and noticing how the universe has been conspiring all along for some future opportunity that we have no idea even exists, you know, at the [00:14:00] time. I mean, most of us are not three steps ahead in that particular strategic way, but, um, then it looks like it was kind of magical, but it, it's, um, step by step. It's just like, oh, all of these things were necessary for this thing to happen.
Um, I also really appreciate how you described caring for the entire ecosystem around medical students because they do not live in a vacuum. They are not an isolated laboratory animal species. They are in the real world of medical education, which, um anybody really is aware of medical education is aware, has been historically fraught, with stresses and pressures and, um, like internal and external forces that sometimes work against our overall wellbeing, [00:15:00] especially mental health.
Kelly: Hmm. There's, there's, there's a lot there, you know, and a lot of layers in terms of when we think about supporting students and creating an environment that allows them to thrive and you can't just make one group of people in a system thrive without supporting all the other folks. It's, it just, it's not possible.
Chrissie: it's not. Um, we've talked about a couple of them, but I wonder if there are one or two understandings, um, insights that you wish more people understood about, um, you know, supporting our wellbeing. And it may or may not be specific to the populations. In your constituency as Chief Wellbeing Officer, but you know, what do you, what do you think would be, uh, useful insight [00:16:00] underlying our wellbeing work?
Kelly: And this is just in terms of being able to support our own wellbeing or supporting others' wellbeing.
Chrissie: Could answer it either way.
Kelly: Yeah. Well, okay, so I'd like to start, I'll start with just general understanding in terms of as an individual supporting your own wellbeing. I think one thing, there's so much wellbeing or wellness stuff pushed at us in the media, right? We look and there's things to buy. There's things to do, and so the first, first understanding I think is important is that wellbeing isn't some magical purchasable thing. Our wellbeing [00:17:00] in its fundamental sense has to do with just how we care for ourselves. Um, and if we can keep it simple, I think folks might understand it better, but because we hear so much, I think oftentimes um, folks overcomplicate what it is and then believe it's not accessible for them because it sounds so complicated. Um, and so I wish there was an understanding that folks had that we could just make it sound simple, that we all have the right and some ability to care for ourselves. And that it is important.
I guess that's would be my point number two, and that it is important. It's fundamental. It's necessary. It's needed. I think that's, that's the understanding I think on the individual level. I think folks should have, and it sounds really simple, but if I get on my Instagram right [00:18:00] now and I scroll, those are not the messages that are coming across my feed. And most of my feed is curated with wellbeing folks. 'cause I'm always looking for new ideas. So I'm, I'm often wondering what's coming across other people's feeds. 'cause that's not what's coming across mine.
Chrissie: Yes. Um, I think that knowing that we all have a right to end some power over our wellbeing is such a good fundamental insight. It makes me curious about, um, another fundamental which is belonging. The importance of belonging as part of wellbeing. Um, and the. ravages the difficulties, the very serious challenges of long-term grappling with, uh, an absence of belonging. Is that a theme that shows up in your work sometimes ?
Kelly: I think it does. It does show up. Um, [00:19:00] I find myself encouraging folks to create their own belonging and, um, create community and find community for themselves. Belonging is fundamental. It's fundamental to our wellbeing. We all have to be connected in a meaningful way to other human beings. What I will say is just like this topic around just general wellbeing. I think sometimes I it gets over complicated. And so I find even for myself, when I start getting really, um, frustrated or worried or agitated about those kinds of things, I have to dial it back to my simplest components and say, wait a minute, where do I find belonging best? Where do I already know [00:20:00] I belong? And what, uh, community or persons are most important to me? And sometimes I have to consciously dial it back to that small group.
And it, it's not any, in any way limiting myself to the larger community. But when I do that and I find what I need most, it then allows me to try to reconnect in larger groups and larger areas. And, and that's a practice I think everybody needs to learn how to do, because belonging in a bigger sense, sometimes feels inaccessible. The hope is that everyone can dial it back and find belonging in a more small, microculture kind of way. Um, and those connections then can propel [00:21:00] us. Again and this is speaking from an individual standpoint, like what we can do for ourselves standpoint. I think it's really important. It's really important that we know how to do that.
Chrissie: I mean, that's really our sphere of control always. Yeah. Right. Um, we can't make other people create belonging for us. We can long for belonging. But I love that idea of creating it ourselves. Um, and the art of assuming belonging, right? If you can assume that you belong, the environment may just rise up to meet you.
Kelly: Yeah, I'm thinking about how that has been true, um, in my own life. As, as you're, you're saying that I'm thinking about the instances where it might've been easier for me to neglect. Or [00:22:00] not think about or even put effort into places where I could assume belonging. And when I have been like, wait a minute, this, this is a place where I belong. How my, uh, showing up in a sense that I belong not only made me feel better, but it created belonging for somebody else. And here I was thought I was trying to take up space for myself, and what I was doing was actually creating space for somebody else.
Chrissie: Yeah. You're like, I'm actually just holding the door open. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They gave me a little happy chill. It seems like a confirming sign. I am curious today about joy and decisions. You mentioned using joy and experiencing joy when you make decisions. Um, I wanna know more about that. I have thoughts about it and I have curiosity about it. Yeah. [00:23:00] What does your brain wanna offer us about that?
Kelly: Yeah, I, it's so funny because, um, I don't know if you've read, uh, the Art of Tidy by Marie Kondo Oh, sure did. Who talks about like touching items and deciding does it spark joy? Does it spark joy? And if it doesn't, like maybe need to get rid of it. And I think it was in reading that book that I realized that I could bring joy into my decision making, you know? And I talk a lot about being aligned with our values when I give these talks about just all the talks mm-hmm. Somebody with a job like mine has to give. Mm-hmm. Um, and being values aligned. So joy is one of my values I've learned about sparking, like making these decisions just with clothing and other items from reading this Marie Kondo book. And so, [00:24:00] as much as possible I try to allow joy to be on the rubric, you know?
And because joy is not a fleeting happiness, joy is part of my anchoring for what my, my life is, both in the present and long term joy. Um, I can have joy in the moment, but joy can also be. Something I'm hoping for, for the future, for a long-term plan. It, it's, it's comparable because I don't have to make an exchange for, well, do I wanna enjoy now have joy now or joy in the future. Joy really helps with long-term and, uh, immediate decisions as well.
So it, it is good for me, I think when I add to the rubric, but it's something I'm still working out. Like I don't know if I get it right all the time. I'm still. I'm still working it out [00:25:00] as a component of, all the decisions and the decision making that I do. Some decisions are a little more complicated than others, and so it's like, okay, where does Joy fit in here? You know, others like, what am I gonna put on today? Mm-hmm. I, joy is on if now, I don't know if it's too much to show your folks, but I, I need to show you the shoes that. Okay. Spark. So that was an easy choice, right? Yes. Joy, they, I have sparkle up here, clearly. I'm gonna put on my sparkle shoes. That was a easy choice where Joy was involved.
Chrissie: Those do spark joy for sure. Um, as you described that, I think a lot about, what Martha Beck calls and what I understand as kind of like our internal compass. So we're listening for an embodied Yes. And I think that joy also has, um, an identity as a resonance or a vibe, [00:26:00] and that our bodies can feel it, even if it's, um, not, it's not just an intellectual thing, you know? This is a, it's, it's much deeper than that. It's not, again, it's not just the, do I like it or do I not like it? It's not gra, you know, a version or, you know, desire. It's like, is this harmonious with me? Do I vibe with this? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and does it also create a sense of delight?
So my, my definition of joy involves meaning, alignment, and delight. Um, and the light is the sparkle. You know, that's, those, those shoes are delightful and they happen to be aligned with how you feel today, right? Um, I think there's something deep about having it be part of our embodied experience as we go through decisions.
When I talk to coaching clients about decisions, one of my [00:27:00] rubrics is, it starts with does it delight you? And mm-hmm it's not a total games stopper if you, if it doesn't delight you, because we're adults, we do have to make decisions that sometimes do not delight us, but let's pay attention, does it delight us? Is it aligned with our mission and values, our own personal sense of mission and value? Do we have time and space for it right now? Do we agree with what it costs us or others? And do we agree with what not choosing it costs us or others? How do you find that? That helps me make joy aligned decisions. What have you learned about leading change, uh, in spaces that were not necessarily originally designed to center wellness?
Kelly: Oh, that's such a good question. That's such a good [00:28:00] question. I think the first thing I, I'll say that I've learned is that, um, number one is that the ultimate goal, like to build a culture of wellbeing, um, , is one that's a slow process, but just because the process is slow of the system or the organization becoming what folks imagine it might be is slow does not mean that we cannot create pockets and opportunities that create, um, an improvement in what we've been doing from what we've been doing, or pockets [00:29:00] that. Um, and opportunities for people to be more well, so while the path we're on might be a long term, longer journey, it, it doesn't mean that, um, being well is out of reach while we're on this long journey.
Chrissie: Yes, we can still be well rested. We can still be well fed. We can take breaks, can find community, can dance a little. Yeah. Uh, you talked a little bit at the beginning of joy being present even in heavy times and heavy places. Um, what is joy like for you right now uh, in personal life and in leadership role?
Kelly: In my personal life, joy [00:30:00] is a lot about connecting, with the people who matter the most to me, the time that I spend with them. And the, the time I spend developing, connections with others just in the, in the world. , And also, again, I talk a lot about my spiritual religious life because it's really important to me and grounding and, and the time I spend in those communities and with my own spiritual practices. I think those are important.
When I think about the work I'm doing, it's, it's interesting because, uh, just last week in my last week's newsletter, I spent time talking about Joy in that newsletter and talking about how finding joy is different from toxic positivity and simple practices everyone can do to access joy. Um, because these are things I think we need to talk [00:31:00] more about. In fact, the first line in, in this part about Joy says we need to talk more about joy, or we don't talk enough about joy. I think that's the first line in the, that's a great opening line. I love it. In the whole communication about Joy.
Chrissie: Yes. That's so good.
Kelly: I'm, I'm trying to bring more of this in, into my work and, um, to the, the folks that I. I spend time with and that I support because I think it's important. This is like the real work of life, I believe.
Chrissie: Yeah. Um, I know that you're also a mom, so I imagine that, uh, a lot of your joy at home has to do with connecting with your kids, significant other. Yes,
Kelly: for sure they are.
Chrissie: How old are they?
Kelly: I have teenagers, so they're 13, 15, and 18.[00:32:00]
Chrissie: Nice, exciting times.
Kelly: It is, it's very, it's, there's no limit on excitement right now.
Chrissie: There's all sorts of excite Um, I also have really feel like how much you embody joy. And so I'm sure that you are, um, ministering joy all the time just through your presence. Uh. In the world. I, I feel and experience that.
Kelly: No, that for me, that is the hope. That is, that is the hope, and that is my prayer. This is like how I hope to continue to be in the world. I think there's some goodness in me showing up with this value and, and there's, you know, we all show up with something. This is so the thing I can show up with and so. I, I guess I, I feel like I need to say is that it's important that all of us show up with the values and the goodness that we have, right?
Chrissie: Like, this is what I [00:33:00] have access to and I am happy to share it, right?
Kelly: Because each of us are needed.
Chrissie: Yeah. Yeah. Um, would you like to share more, um, a little bit about your faith and your history with your faith?
Kelly: Sure I would love to. I grew up in a Christian home and that bible believing Christian home, and I, I have like. I don't, it's, it's hard to put into words. I have like this incredible faith life that is like the whole anchoring of my existence. So I believe like my access to joy, um, comes because of my love and Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. I just, and I am extremely grateful. Um, these are things. You know, I was taught about as a kid, but over the course of my [00:34:00] life, in my own studies and my own developing relationship, um, I, it it's just been amazing. It's been amazing to have this life where I feel that I'm empowered to, uh. To share my joy with other people.
I mean, it's just like nothing like it. I, I don't know how I could live any other way. Um, because it's just been, it's been absolutely amazing. Not that I have, I shared earlier, I went through some really challenging, um, times and an experience and during that experience, just learning how much access I had to joy. Um, one of the narratives in the Bible that I studied during that period was about Naomi, who was a woman whose [00:35:00] husband, her sons died. She was left with her two daughter-in-laws. She told 'em to leave them. She was gonna travel back to her home of origin. Um, one decided to stay with her.
But what's really interesting is this woman, Naomi, when she got back to the country that she was from, she told the people, don't even call me Naomi. Call me Maura, because I had so much sorrow. And in studying that story and how her daughter-in-law was able to bless her just by her existence in showing up and, and, and trying to build a family, a life of their own. Um, Naomi Sorrow turned, turned to joy. And, um, in me studying that story and the deconstructing of those scriptures, I could see how even in something painful that there's this hopefulness. [00:36:00] That could come out of something that seems so terrible and it paralleled some of the experiences that I was having. And it's become like one of my root anchoring stories from the scriptures that just reminds me that joy is ever present even in sorrow. And, um, I, I seek to access that joy on a daily basis and I'm just extremely grateful. I am. Extremely grateful. Extremely grateful.
Chrissie: Oh, gratitude is a, um, a shortcut to joy, so it's kind of self extending. Thank you for sharing that and, and how that impacted you. It's nice to know all these, um, deeper residences, my friend Kelly. What are you excited about in your wellness work right now? What's, what's on the [00:37:00] horizon?
Kelly: On the horizon? Oh, wow. That's a good question. Um, this year has been. Yeah, what's on the horizon? I have a wellbeing symposium that's coming up in two weeks that I've been planning for, for a while that's gonna be virtual, so I'm really excited about that. That'll allow, I work with some of our wellbeing leaders in our clinical departments and we work together to put it together. Um, this will be our second annual conference, and so, um, we've had to make some shifts. And so it's virtual instead of being in person. But, um, I'm really looking forward to that because, it's always nice when I can bring wellbeing folks together. Um, they just, we just tend to be a great group of people to get together.
True. Yes. So I'm looking forward to, and being at an institution like ours, they're not people I see on a daily basis. So I'm looking forward to, uh, pulling them [00:38:00] together and, uh, having the symposium that we've been working on for then we're gearing up for the end of the academic school year, and so it's always exciting to hear how the students have matched and where they're going. Today, I had a meeting with our third year students. They're in their last week of, um, like a clinical skills course they take before they start clerkship. So they start clerkship next week. So that's an exciting time and trying to keep a pulse on them of what they're needing in terms of their wellbeing.
So we're at a juncture of change for a lot of our students. Um, we have new residents are gonna be coming in in July, so just kind of gearing up to Greek folks as they make transitions and changes and trying to make sure we have some adequate support and systems available to them.
Chrissie: It's giving me flashbacks to, um, you know, clerkship time and my own medical training [00:39:00] and. You know, many of our listeners know this, but for those who don't. You know, part of your medical training is you go through these clerkships where you spend four or six or eight weeks. Usually it's four, in a particular specialty. So just imagine changing jobs, locations, bosses and colleagues every four weeks, um, and learning like a whole nother like, oh, today I'm a junior internal medicine doc. Tomorrow, I'm like a junior surgeon. The next week I'm a junior psychiatrist. The next week I'm a junior, you know, family medicine doc.
So it is a time full of so many, uh, so many challenges. Such a vertical learning, curve. And it's a place where our ego certainly gets, um, like gets a challenge because even though we study a lot, um, it's, it's pretty hard to be [00:40:00] masterful at each of these topics in such close succession, and they're all really important to create a well-rounded physician who's gonna subspecialize in, you know, one of those areas. Whether it's a broad area like general medicine, family medicine, or internal medicine or pediatrics or super, super specialized area. It's so helpful to know a little bit about each one of these specialty areas. I just, you know, I haven't visited that time in my brain in so long, but, um, I have vivid memories of, of the switch day, like being the first day on obstetrics and be like, okay, so today I'm delivering babies. Great. Somebody, somebody get my back. Okay. Somebody teach me something. I do not know what I'm here to do.
Kelly: Yeah. That third year is, is definitely a telling year also, but an exciting year. 'cause this is a year most people have waited for, right? Yes. You get to actually actually [00:41:00] be in the clinic and do these things. So while there's all this excitement, there's also, it can be a lot of fear and, um, challenges because again, when you're changing environments regularly, um. It's just hard. You gotta meet new people, new attendings, every couple of weeks. It's a lot.
Chrissie: So we, it's so much stimulation. It's so much stimulation. Yeah. If I could go back and say one thing to my former self or to people who are going through that right now, um, it would be if you have a tendency to be self-focused and think how am I being experienced by others? There's room for that, but your primary job is to be a sponge. Yes, of course. Nobody wants to look like an idiot. We need to do our due diligence and read the chapter that's relevant the day before. Um, but it's really not about how you look, even though the grades matter, right? Like [00:42:00] it's really about absorbing, asking questions and being, being part of a team that's being of service to people.
Kelly: I think those are good things for folks to remember.
Chrissie: Yeah. And that you are a human being and you have a right to say Ouch if, um, somebody's actually being psychologically harmful to you. Yes, yes. Remind the occasional toxic attending. Hi. I am a human. I'm here to learn. My learning may slow you down. I'm so sorry for that, but could we please just refocus that I'm here to learn and serve and maybe not harm each other, please. And any last words about solving for joy for people who might be stuck in the heavy places right now?
Kelly: The one thing I would encourage around solving for joy is [00:43:00] needs to allow yourself to be open to joy, um, no matter what you're experiencing part of getting to joy is being open, open to it, and sometimes when life is really tough. We struggled, like with gratitude or anything that would open us up to the possibility of joy. And so, I would just encourage you to maybe even be curious about how joy might show up at the same time as you experiencing whatever, whatever's going on.
Chrissie: Um, at least, at least try a little curiosity. I love it and I think that is super good advice. Thank you for talking about joy with me today. So sweet to [00:44:00] have you.
Kelly: You are welcome. I was glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Chrissie: Yes. Yes. May, may your work go smoothly. May, may there be much joy.
Kelly: Thanks. I wish the same.
Chrissie: Thank you my friend. We'll see you soon.
Thank you again to Dr. Kelly Holder for this grounding, generous conversation about joy as a practice, a presence of value, a way of being in the world. I hope you're leaving this episode with a little more room to breathe and a reminder that you belong just as you are. Next week I will be joined by my friend and colleague, Dr. Paul Yutan a physician who walked through burnout. Found unexpected healing in acupuncture and reconnected his purpose, his Ikigai through coaching. We'll talk about energy medicine and what it means to rebuild a life that [00:45:00] truly fits.
If you're curious about how coaching could support your own journey, 12 by 12 or mastered might be for you. It's open now and it's our hybrid coaching container for clinicians and people of all kinds ready to reclaim what matters most. You can schedule a free exploratory call anytime the links in the show notes, and if you're a coach healer, change maker looking for community. You may have heard we're gathering in November at the Physician Coaching Summit. Check it out at the physician coaching summit.com. You belong.
If today's episode moved you or made you think of someone else who needs to hear it, I'd be so grateful if you'd leave a review and share it with someone. This is how the work ripples out reaching more hearts, one honest conversation at a time.
Huge thanks as always, to our creative crew, Kelsey Vaughn, Alyssa Wilkes, Shelby Brakken, Denys Kyschuk and [00:46:00] a big thank you as always to my partner in life, Sue. And you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for listening. May you find a little joy waiting quietly in the places you've almost forgotten to look. We'll see you next time.
