Chrissie Ep 36 (Sasha)
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Sasha: [00:00:00] don't you find that some of the most impactful people in your life have been people that have gone through something really challenging and been brave enough to share it with you?
Chrissie: We don't want to numb or just deflect off of the messy middle. it's actually where the good stuff comes from.
Sasha: it's about people. It is not about possessions and it is not about power and money they just don't motivate me like they did before.
Chrissie: you're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so honored to have my friend, Dr. Sasha Shillcut with us today, FYI. Everybody out [00:01:00] there it is Sasha, not Sasha. You're welcome. With love and while her CV is wildly impressive, uh, as in she's the vice Chair of Strategy in the Department of Anesthesiology at University of Nebraska Medical Center, she's a gender equity researcher, a bestselling author, speaker, and the founder of the Brave Enough Community and Conference and related coaching.
All of that's wildly impressive. But what I am most excited about today is hearing directly from Sasha, the person about what drives and sustains her in this life, what she's learned, and how she's solving for joy in the midst of it all, I have a feeling she's gonna share with us some of the wilder twists and turns that have tested her courage and joy, as well as, um, just tell us what it's like to be such an accomplished woman turning 50 in a few short weeks and where we're [00:02:00] going from here. Sasha, welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so glad to have you with us for this conversation today.
Sasha: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I have just felt such a positive connection and energy from you, from the moment we met, which is on a shuttle, and, uh, you and I, I don't even, I was very you know, serendipitous, we just, we met on this shuttle. We were both going to the same location for a retreat and we kind of shared everything about what was going on in our current now at a deep level in like 45 minutes. I felt connected to you. I felt safe with you. You were very safe, positive person, and I just. I really enjoyed speaking with you, so thanks for having me today.
Chrissie: You know, that shuttle ride was so, um, touching and impactful for me. We were on our way to last year's physician coaching summit and we bonded over natural [00:03:00] disasters. We bonded over loss of beloved family members trauma. We bonded over parenting. We were like, wow. And yes. Yeah. Thank you for being open and available to have such a, a vulnerable chat in a shuttle on the way to a conference in, even though we'd never even met before.
Sasha: I know. Well thanks for being a, a safe person in a listening ear 'cause that was likewise. That was just, it was great.
Chrissie: Yeah. So before we dive in, 'cause I know everybody's probably like, what are they talking about? Um. How are you arriving today? What, what are you bringing in with you right, right this minute?
Sasha: You know, I am at a, I've had a really interesting couple years and I'm at what I feel like is the, I'm kind of coming out of the wilderness, coming out of this very deep valley climbing what that I've kind of had to climb through [00:04:00] brush, if you can imagine. And put yourself just on a path where there's not a real clear exit. And I'm just starting to see kind of the sunlight coming through the trees and getting excited that the journey is gonna change and the path is gonna look different.
And I say that because I am turning 50 in a couple weeks, as you alluded to, and it's really also coming at a time in my life where I'm probably gonna be hopefully moving back into a home that we've rebuilt and changing the way I work clinically and also starting a new business. Um, and I think I have such clarity for the first time in a couple years, I'm still unpacking a lot of things that have happened, but I can see like a new beginning and a new path for myself, and I'm really thriving for the last like [00:05:00] month, uh, in anticipation of what's to come.
Chrissie: That is, that is wonderful. That, that's a great feeling to have. Mm-hmm. Um, our listeners probably would love to be just caught up with a thumbnail sketch of some of the brush and briar and scratches that you are now crawling out of, um, which as we said before, like solving for joy does not always mean trotting out our trauma, but it does mean contextualizing what we have persevered through. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So to the extent that you would, um, be willing to share with our listeners a little bit about those twists and turns,
Sasha: so I have work in a very, I'm a cardiac anesthesiologist, so just to give some context, I am used to high stress uh, high stake environment. I thrive in that. That's just kind of what I do in my daily work. Um, I [00:06:00] work in a, a large heart failure center, so I do a lot of heart transplantation. I do a lot of lung transplantation. I mean, pretty complex cardiac disease. So I see people, no big deal. I see people at their end or in their most mm-hmm vulnerable stages. And I, it is not uncommon for me to see deep grief on a weekly basis. I mean, this is just the world that I, that I swim in. Yes.
And, and thank you. Well, yes, you're welcome. Thank you for what you do, because I could not do what you do, but I've always had this kind of thought. At the end of the day, even on my hardest days when I'm driving home, I. Like, well, I, at least I have my family and I have my house. You know, almost like I've held these two pieces together, like well, this is safe. This is my safety. Like I [00:07:00] have this amazing family and I have my beautiful house. You know, our house we live, uh, we chose to live outside of the city, so we live on 10 acres and we've really spent the last 15 years building up our home to be like our oasis. Like we have a big outdoor space and you know, I go home at night and I hear cows mooing and coyotes and I hear owls and we have, you know, bald eagles and it's just beautiful and it's serene and, and I've always thought like about. Oh my gosh, what would I do if this happened to me? Like, you know how you put yourself in the situation of your parents or your patients or their families mm-hmm. Or your friends tragedies and you go, well, at least I have these two things like that. I'm, I'm solid, I'm good. Like the world could be crashing around me, but I have my family, I have my home. I love those two things more than anything.
And in the last two years, I my nuclear family, um, my brother-in-law dropped, uh, dead of a pulmonary embolism at age [00:08:00] 45, and my niece resuscitated him. And in short story, she was able to keep his organs alive through CPR, uh, his daughter. But, uh, he ended up becoming an organ donor and through a series of events he gave his heart, he gave several organs through beautiful donation, but his heart went to my other brother-in-law who was awaiting a heart transplant in a center where I work. So it was very complex. And the trauma of that, that just have to stop
Chrissie: for the chill factor. Yeah. Because
Sasha: yeah,
Chrissie: it's, I mean, just let that sink in for one moment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I cannot imagine well, any of it. But also like the profundity, just, you cannot design this, like the, you could not. Right, right. Um, [00:09:00] so much feeling, so much so yeah full circle ness and pain at the same time.
Sasha: Yes. Like the deepest grief you've ever felt and the deepest joy and hope you've ever felt at the same time for two people in your family. Both of these people are my sister's husband, so my sisters one's losing a husband, one's gaining her husband's gaining life, and my nieces and nephews who we're all very close with. Um, so my family it kind of imploded and just changed, like everything shifted from every meal to every holiday. Everything we always did together became very different and, and a, a mix of grief and sadness and this is our new normal and how do we even do this anymore? And, and so. [00:10:00] Very, very difficult.
And then eight months later, so a year ago, uh, in two, it'll be a year and two weeks, my house was destroyed in a tornado In two minutes, I lost my home in 90% of my possessions like in two seconds. So, uh, it has been a year of realizing that I've always like, held myself like, you know how something happens and you're like, well, that has never happened to me. Well that doesn't happen to me. You know, we kind of, um, we see other people going through things and we just we're like, oh, well that would never happen to my family, or that would never happen to me. Like at least I have this, and I've always kind of had that thought when I'm having like hard times, sad times. Like, well, I can fall back to these two things. And those things were ripped out from underneath me and I in, you know, was [00:11:00] homeless, really, truly homeless in, in like two minutes. Um.
Then my family that I would've leaned on in this tragedy, which I, I did lean on and did help me a lot, was not the same family from a year before. You know, one of the things that my husband and I both said, um, in the first 24 hours after we lost our home was the person who would've been here picking up brush, picking up stuff is my brother-in-law who would've been there through the night with us. So feeling his loss through this.
So it has been a rough year and a half, however. I also realized that I was, we as a family and, and me as a human are so loved through all of this. Like I would never have been able to see the [00:12:00] goodness of people and the goodness of humanity and the kindness of people if we hadn't gone through the last year and a half. I. I, I have never felt such love and care from just my community, the physician, women community, the phys, the me, the medical community, my, our farming community, and our little farm area where we live, our neighbors, um, my church community, my, my hospital community. So it's been a very, um, eye-opening. And just becoming aware of, sometimes we hold on to things that we actually don't own and are not really ours and can be gone in an instant, um, and, and our blessings and gifts, but can leave us. And, and so it's been a, it's been a hard but [00:13:00] a, I'm just starting to see now. I'm clearing that brush and I'm starting to see at the positive things and the lessons I've learned and the joy that's come from this experience.
Chrissie: So, so profound. Um, I'm reminded of, you know, this saying that whatever is truly yours cannot be taken away.
Sasha: Mm-hmm.
Chrissie: And another way of interpreting that, um, is, uh, a, a Buddhist thought about true refuge. That there are many places we take false refuge. Mm-hmm. And in coaching, we think about that as our many identities that we put on, but also our identification with our physical homestead, our identification with our work. Identity or even our identification with our parental role. Um, there's always a truer refuge underneath and for, you know, people in different [00:14:00] spiritual traditions that may be God, it may be faith, it may be, um, their practices. But when you have had everything wiped away that dramatically, it is clarifying. Mm-hmm. It is, uh, exquisitely painful and clarifying. Mm-hmm. And we haven't said this out loud, but I want people to be able to know and relax that um, all of your humans and animals we're safe.
Sasha: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So my husband was home with my three children, our dog. Uh, I have one son who is away at college. When it happened, I was on a plane and it was really amazing because my husband works on Fridays. He's always, we're at at the hospital on Fridays and he took that Friday off because [00:15:00] my daughter had a big school event in the morning. So he just happened to be home when my teenagers were all trickling in the door from school and. My one son arrived two minutes before it hit like he got home from school two minutes before it struck. So my husband was there and was able to get everyone in our storm cellar kind of storage room in the basement that didn't, doesn't have windows, and was all cement. Um, luckily. And so everyone was fine. Everyone was safe. And um, it was, you know, just great that he was, that he happened to be off that day and home because my teenagers, I think, would've been in the basement. They know to go in the basement, you know, the sirens were going off, and the news was saying, but they lost power. And had they been sitting in the couch, in the basement where they had been watching the news, they would've been very injured.
Like something about a minute before it hit, my husband had this feeling [00:16:00] that he's like, I just knew we needed to get up off the couch. Which, by the way, was destroyed. There was glass shards everywhere, debris from the tornado. It was an E four tornado, which is like the one of the largest, it, the, the mouth of this thing, the width of it was like several football fields. If that gives you kind of, uh, how big this was and deposited, like if they had been sitting there, they would've been really injured because we had furniture in our basement. Everybody goes in a tornado. That was not our furniture. Like we don't know where whose furniture It's, I mean it's kind of funny. So because we did have windows in our basement and all the glass and all the walls, it's like the great shuffle. It's like the whole earth played 52 card pickup. Yeah, it was really insane. Oh my gosh. So, uh, but they're all safe and well,
Chrissie: I am so glad that they're safe and well. I so glad that [00:17:00] you, you know, are equipped in all the ways that you're equipped and loved in all the ways that you're loved mm-hmm. And supported in all the ways that you are supported. Um, whew. Tell me about your, your courage and your connection to joy as you are coming out of this chapter.
Sasha: Yeah, well, number one, I feel a lot lighter because while I, I've never thought of myself as a very materialistic person. Uh, you do accumulate things in your life and you accumulate lots of, lots of things when you have four kids. Yeah. And we are now, you know, living in a small rental house that is like half the size of our house and. We are probably all have 10% of what we had before and [00:18:00] we're okay, like we're okay with that.
And it was really interesting after it happened, everybody was like, oh no, did you lose pictures? Did you lose this? Did you lose that? And I'm like, yes, we lo. But I did not even care about that. Like that was not at all on my radar or my stress, my stress. It was so interesting, Chrissie as a mom, all I cared about was like the most, it was literally Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, yeah, where are we gonna eat? How am I gonna feed these kids? How, where are my kids gonna sleep tonight? How is my dog gonna have a place to sleep with us? Like, where's where, how are we gonna keep him? Ex exercise him? And, um, I don't have a place to cook for my kids and. I just became like the most maternal instinct.
Mm-hmm. Driven human being that I've never felt that level of maternal instinct before. Like [00:19:00] my job is to find a shelter and find us a place to live tonight and to like my kids to rest and do their homework and. Eat like it was just that. I feel that was just like my mission for two weeks.
Chrissie: I was like, I feel that all the way in my bones. Yes. Like I am a maternal animal and we will survive whatever this is like,
Sasha: yeah. Yes, yes.
Chrissie: Get under my wings now.
Sasha: Yeah. And so I have a lot of joy now because I, my life is I'm go like, we're rebuilding our house, we're moving back. But I have simplified things so much that I, I just have a lot more joy because I have a lot more time. 'cause I. I'm not tied into things or I don't even want things, you know? And so man, you get really like lighter. You get lighter [00:20:00] in that feeling of what you need to have or what you need to do.
Chrissie: You know, that insight is so crucial in my opinion. And I am very much a beginner, I think on like really working through like embodying that wisdom. Mm-hmm. Um, I have friends who have been living abroad since September and they separated from almost all of their belongings. And, you know, when I, um, got my mom and brother and nephew out of the house in flood in Texas, like they left 95% of their belongings behind. And not only is it survivable, there really is some um, serious freedom in being less tied to objects. Mm-hmm. Which the anticipatory grief of losing objects will fight against to the death. Like my mom wailed as we were trying to evacuate her, but I don't wanna leave my things, [00:21:00] and I know it's so true. Yeah.
Sasha: Yeah. And also I will say that on the simplification side of the, of, one of the other things I've realized is like when somebody says, Hey, can you meet for happy hour? Or Can you meet for coffee? Before I would be like, oh, I don't know. I have this to do or I gotta do this. I don't think so. And now I'm like. You know, I can meet for coffee for an hour. Of course I can meet for a happy hour for an hour. This is not that big of a deal because. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. I am truly living in the moment more than I have ever lived in the moment. And that's not my, where my personality goes. I love to think ahead and what I'm doing next and what I should be doing. I'm a huge should up person, and I, I should do this so that I can get to this point, you know? And [00:22:00] that is just gone, like, I'm realizing it's about people. It is not about possessions and it is not about power and the next, and money and the next thing a checks mm-hmm. Projects. They just don't motivate me like they did before. I don't even have those thoughts. I'm like, yeah, I, I do have time for this phone call from this person. I do have time for dinner with you. I do have di time for lunch with you because mm-hmm. That's what's most important are people to me
Chrissie: that sounds really, um, heart-centered. That sounds very integrated. It's beautiful. Are you, uh, talking about the new business that you alluded to?
Sasha: Yes. I'm so excited. So this is also kind of really challenged me, this whole, these events to think about what I don't wanna be doing anymore and you [00:23:00] know that I love the quote, you know, what are you gonna do with this one big, wonderful life? And I keep thinking about this in the context of my brother-in-law. I mean, what would he have done different if he knew you've got a day left or you've got a week left? And it does change you when you lose someone, I think that died young in your life that you're close to.
I think it does change you. I mean, I think about my brother-in-law. I lost my grandma two years ago and she was a force and she was amazing and I loved her. But when she died, she had such a beautiful life and beautiful death that we like celebrated her, and we laughed and we giggled and there was not this grief that you know, it was time for her to go and she was like, do not cry for me. Like I have had an amazing life. Very different when my brother-in-law died last year. And um, [00:24:00] this business is something I've wanted to do for five years, Chrissie. And you know, it's one of those things like, well. Maybe when my kids are done out of college and I've like financially secure and I don't have risk.
Maybe when the work situation, when we're fully staffed. Right. You know, you know how you use all these excuses to not take the risk. Mm-hmm. And I'm just not doing that. Like, I'm just, I have, I remember thinking to myself, what would 60-year-old Sasha say to 50-year-old Sasha? And 60-year-old Sasha would say, do it now.
Like, what are you waiting for? So I'm creating an actual. Physical space for women in my community. Um, it's going to be wom. The, we don't have a space like this in Omaha, Nebraska. We have lots of really fantastic women in this community who are [00:25:00] entrepreneurs, who are run non-profits, who work in education, work in tech, work in medicine, work all over, and don't have a space for women. My husband, we belong to a country club where he golfs, where he plays tent pickleball and tennis. And I can go there, but I don't feel welcome there like mm-hmm. I go there when I eat dinner with him, you know, my boys go there and golf. My daughter goes there and swims and golfs and stuff, but like I don't go there to like find refuge. My husband loves going there. I mean, he loves going to the, the, to golf and like sit outside and have a drink and, and I started looking around my community and I'm like, I. Wow. There are no places for, we don't have such a place for women. Like we don't, we, if we're gonna meet, we're gonna meet in a coffee club, you know, a coffee house. That's what, if we wanna meet a friend and we're gonna have [00:26:00] to yell over everybody else in the coffee house, or we are meeting online because it's seven o'clock at night, we're trying to like, do the dinner and do all the things, and I'm like why do we not have clubs for women?
So I started researching this about five years ago, and there are several in bigger cities, uh, they do have this model, and I'm like, I'm just gonna start one. I'm gonna start a women's club where women can come, have a cup of coffee, have a glass of wine. Sit in a quiet room when I have a quiet room. How fun is that? I love it. Where no talking and you're like sitting on a, you know like when you go to the spa, if you're a spa person and you get a facial or a massage and there's always that like room that you're sitting in before the massage and you never wanna leave that room.
Chrissie: I don't visit them very often, but I freaking love those rooms.
Sasha: Yes, I love them too. And I'm like, how do I skip my massage and just stay here. Like I don't even need the massage, I just wanna sit in this room. [00:27:00] So I'm creating that. And obviously it's gonna have a programming element where women can come together, they can network, they can share ideas, um, they can share their talents with each other and grow. But it's also just a place like I need to get away from my house for two hours and like not be in my house and not be mom or not be doctor, or not be fill in the blank. I just need to be me for two hours and sit here in silence. So I'm creating that right now.
Chrissie: It sounds like a women's respite space.
Sasha: Yes. Yes. And these are popping up.
Chrissie: Will there also be like exercise and things like that? Or is it not that, um, focus.
Sasha: Um, not that focused for right now because of just constraints with like, getting mission off the ground. Yeah, we are gonna have a wellness room, but it's not gonna have a gym. Eventually, hopefully we'll build that out. It's also gonna have like some cozy event spaces. So say you're hosting a book club, you know, say you're hosting a [00:28:00] baby shower, like there's just a space for women. But when you walk in, it's not gonna feel like you're in a male dominated workspace with like wires hanging down and some dude on a Bluetooth, like talking at levels that are obnoxious. You know?
Chrissie: Sounds like a very specific memory. Yes.
Sasha: You know you're gonna, yes, totally. You're gonna walk in, you're gonna be like, oh, shoulders down.
Chrissie: Right. I can feel it. Yeah. How wonderful. I'm excited. I'm excited. That is amazing. Congratulations on taking action and making that real. I. Scary. Um, it. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, it is scary. There's, there's risk and there's not knowing and there's, I'm doing it anyway because it's what's true. Mm-hmm. It's my true creative impulse in my heart. Mm-hmm. In my body. It's the gift that I've been given to express in the world. And we'll see what happens. But my business is only doing it. My business is not in [00:29:00] ensuring that I only have good outcomes, quote unquote good outcomes, right? Yes. Like we know from having bad outcomes in many areas of our life, that things on the other side of bad outcomes are often not available to us except through the difficulty.
Sasha: So true.
Chrissie: Yeah. Which doesn't doesn't mean we wish them. Um, thinking about all of the insights you were sharing about after the tornado and Shiza shamine and positive intelligence is always asking like, how can this crappy thing become a gift? Like, how will it become a gift? How will I ensure that it becomes a gift? Even though I did not welcome it, I did not invite it. I did not ask for it, and it is not quote unquote enjoyable. Like, how do I transform it into. It's gift form. What is that alchemy?
Sasha: You know, I remember right after this happened, [00:30:00] my mom, who I love so much, and she's a gift people, she, and very wise she said. Something good is gonna come out of this. And I was so angry 'cause I was like, anger, stage of grief, and I was like are you kidding me? I'm living in a home, two suites with four kids and a dog. Like, do not tell me this right now. I can't even find a bra like, that's right. I wanted to just like, I was not ready for that at all. Butt your tongue lady. Um, yeah, but now I'm like, oh, of course my mother's always right. Like she's right. Like there's been so many great things that have come from our family and come from this. But it's definitely a process you have to work through.
Chrissie: And I'm gonna say though, you're not wrong, your mom probably should have used restraint in that moment. She, the timing was off.
Sasha: She should, the timing was way off. Way off. Um, and, uh, God love her. [00:31:00] But I, I'm like, you know, there are still things I'm, I'm uncovering, like there are still things that I am like, wow. I have such a different perspective on that. I'm responding differently to things because this has changed me in a way that I, you know, would not respond before. I'm so much more like, I think I have more grace for people and myself. I, I think I tend to. Judge people before at a, at a level that I probably didn't even realize I was doing.
And, and now I'm like, well, maybe that person's having a really, maybe they're being a jerk, but maybe they just lost their house in a tornado. Right. You know, like maybe they're just really going through something because I, I had to be [00:32:00] someone I have never had to be, which is needy. I needed help. And that is humbling, Chrissie when you are on the receiving end of help and you're not the giver, it is a humbling place to be. It is. And that's where I was.
Chrissie: Yes. It's like in apparent contradiction to the much more practiced role of being the resource, right? Mm-hmm. Um, it is. It is useful to take our turn, you know, receiving resources from what's around us. But hail it is not comfortable. Mm-hmm. No. And you know, the, the words resilient af are like, what's coming into my mind for you right now? And I, I think that, um. You know, like not only have you been through the storm of the tornado, Sasha has [00:33:00] also lived through an incredibly vitriolic, uh, storm of like cyber bullying, like mm-hmm. Just really being canceled mm-hmm. Um, over stuff that was, frankly, it's just like a successful woman making choices. Mm-hmm. Oh
Sasha: yes. I love how you just framed that. I need Tori, I need to go back when this plays and I'm gonna write that down. 'cause I don't think that anyone has ever captured that as eloquently as you just did so. Well done. You.
Chrissie: Oh, thank you. Um, but yes, they're just, the words that came out as true, like a successful woman making choices is, um, you know, it feels dangerous. It feels destabilizing. Mm-hmm. It feels like a threat if you haven't been with it before. Um, and we can get real confused as women thinking that it's the successful woman making choices job to somehow also make us feel comfortable. [00:34:00] Correct. Yes. And it's not y'all. It's not.
Sasha: No, you're, yes, you are. You are so right. And you know, I realized, so I what some of what you're alluding to, if for, if people don't know, is I had a very large, successful, popular, if you wanna call it that. Whatever Facebook group and uh, like tens of thousands of female physicians in it. Yeah and lots of of women physicians. And I worked for six years to moderate that group and cultivate it, and I loved it. And honestly, Chrissie 90% of the 95% of the people in that group were wonderful, encouraging positive people who just popped in for a little uplift and would check out. Um.
But it became, uh, very difficult to lead that group without [00:35:00] and keep the sentiment of the group without devoting at least an hour and a half a day, an hour to an hour and a half a day of my day. And I would have to do a morning kind of cleanup and an an evening cleanup. And if I would get behind, then it would just be like mountains more work. Because then something would've, someone would've posted something I didn't see and there would be an argument or a fight or something, and I would, and people would be DMing me about it.
So, I mean, just controlling this group became like a whole nother inbox. It was, and I just started to not love it anymore, and I thought, why am I doing this thing that is not serving me anymore? Like it's stressing me out. It's taking me from my kids. I can't be away from my phone. Um, I go on vacation and I still have to check in and do and moderate this group, and I am I, it's really not healthy for me anymore because [00:36:00] even if I'm not in the group, I'm thinking of the group and I'm stressing about it. If something happens politically or if something happens socially or if something just happens in the group that is like unrelated to anything happening, but I don't see it or I don't respond to it, it, it's gonna get out of, it's gonna create more work for me because then I'm gonna get 20 dms about it.
So I knew that I needed to step back from this group and I knew I needed to shut it down and it it yet, you know, so many people when I did that were like, why did you do that? It was such, it was like the most positive group on Facebook. And I'm like, because I worked for three hours a day to make it, that you didn't see like, behind the scenes, like how hard I worked to keep it that way, you know?
Chrissie: And so it's like, why did you stop making an eight course dinner every night?
Sasha: Yes, yes. And so I actually like hired, I did a ton of research and I, I found like three women. Entrepreneurs who had done something similar shut down [00:37:00] their group. And each of them kind of had a different take on how they did it. And if what went well and what didn't go well and gave me advice. I paid people to, and consulted people to kind of help me do this. Like how do I, what do I do? And it got to the point where I was so afraid to do it that I was like, I need to maybe talk to a therapist. And my friend who's a psychiatrist was like I just wanna, I'm, I'm gonna get you to talk to some, I know who you can talk to, but I do want you to just take a step back. She's like, because for a year now you've been saying you're gonna do this, and now you're actually going to, you've been paying these consultants to help you and you've been doing all this research and you have a plan and you're still too afraid to do it, that so much so that now you're having to pay a therapist to help you do this, and I'm like. Okay. When you put it like that, I was like, thank you, psychiatrist.
But, um, she was like, I just, I'm just pointing out, I just wanna ask you some questions about this. She's really funny. So I did it and [00:38:00] I knew it was gonna be bad to shut down. I mean, I knew it was gonna be hard. I knew there was gonna be backlash when I shut this down, but I didn't, was not prepared at all for the responses from some people. And the hurt, nor was I really, um, prepared for how much it hurt me and affected me and how much I, I, I just didn't realize how my ego was all tied into this identity also.
So like I feel like I'm a pretty confident, tough person, but the cyber bullying that I experienced and the vitriol that I experienced put me in a very dark place for about eight weeks. I mean, really dark place.
Chrissie: So when physicians say really dark place mm-hmm. Um, they are often saying without saying that they had thoughts [00:39:00] of not being here anymore.
Sasha: I definitely did not ever think about not being here anymore, but I thought about not being present anywhere for anyone to see. I like,
Chrissie: I will shrink down into my smallest version. Oh, yes, I'll become invisible. Yes. I'll no longer express my essence. Mm-hmm. In the world.
Sasha: Correct. Uhhuh and I did that. I mean, I did that. I just shrank. I just became nothing for like eight weeks. Mm-hmm. I call it my fifth, my fifth postpartum episode because I was the person, whenever I would have a baby that I was like, I would go into like hibernation mode. I was not the mom who was like. My friends who were like, oh my gosh, I'm nursing. Let's go to a movie. I'm like, are you insane? I can't even put, I can't even take a shower. Like, how are you [00:40:00] going to the movie theater with a two week old? So I, that's so funny. Was that mom who was like, acted like I was, I don't know. Mm-hmm. I just stayed in my home for as many weeks as I could, and nevertheless, until I had to go back to work.
Chrissie: Yes. Where's my den? Bring me dinner.
Sasha: Yes, that was me 100%. So my husband's like, it's like you were postpartum for like eight weeks. You just hid, nobody saw you. Mm-hmm. You didn't wanna go anywhere. You didn't post anything you, yeah. And it was a lot of shame, and I was afraid to trust people because. I would get, you know, screenshots that people would send me, where people were badmouthing me that I thought, I didn't even know these people, or I thought they liked me, or I thought they were my friend or just ouch. It was so much Ouch. It was, yes, painful. Painful. And also I had teenagers who I forgot were online. [00:41:00] Ouch. And some of them saw things about me, that were said about me from people who had doctor so-and-so. That was very hard, very hard to explain to my teenagers why other doctors were saying bad things about me. It was very hard.
Chrissie: So much Ouch for you. I'm so sorry that you were dehumanized. Um mm-hmm. In that way by anyone, much less by many. Um, and I, I just, you know, like we all are on a learning journey. Mm-hmm. Um, you alluded to, there might've been things that you would've just differently if you had to do it over again. Mm-hmm. However, when people are dehumanizing somebody else, and especially misbehaving online friends, ultimately that's about you. It's not actually about the object of your actions, it's about you taking an action. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Taking a stand that, uh, you know, rips away somebody else's humanity. It's not what I'm down with at all, and I don't think that it ever solves for joy. You might get a dopamine hit out of feeling righteous. Mm-hmm. Or, right. Mm-hmm. Um, but that is not, that is not a good way forward friends.
Sasha: No. And I won't ever do that to anyone because that was done to me. So even people will be like, oh my gosh, did you see what this person did or that person? And I'm like, you know people are typically are, I mean, the majority of people, unless you're a sociopath or a psychopath, are going to come around to their errors and are gonna say, that was not my best move. I should not have done that. Or, wow, I was not in a good place when I [00:43:00] posted this or I said this, and I just don't think that, you know, I have never received hate or, or a CURT response or on social media and gone, I'm gonna be a better person. Like, that's never been my response. So me doing that back to people I don't think is gonna be beneficial or help them be a better person, I think they're gonna have to come to that on their own conclusion. So I just said nothing.
Chrissie: Yes. May time be they're teachers. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you have two books, Grit and Grace and Brave Boundaries.
Sasha: I do,
Chrissie: What has surprised you most in the process of writing, sharing, or just receiving reactions from those two books? [00:44:00]
Sasha: Well, it's really interesting because. I, I think that, you know, people find things from when we share, when we're vulnerable enough to share what we've gone through and some of our ugly parts of ourselves. Or not really ugly, but just less polished when we fumble or when we drop the ball or when we are like, oh, it's kind of like when you go back and you read what you posted like 10 years ago on social media and you're like really, that was what I thought was interesting. You know, um, when you share those parts of yourselves with people, someone out there is standing on an island thinking, going through something similar and thinks like, what is wrong with me?
And when you share the parts of yourself that aren't, isn't your CV like. Nobody cares about your cv. That really, like [00:45:00] your CV isn't gonna be like life altering for someone. No one's gonna read your resume and be like, oh my gosh, I learned so much from her. Who cares? But the parts that I've struggled like when I've burned out, when I've wanted to, when I've been in that dark place, when I've wanted to make myself smaller, um, when I felt like a failure, when I struggled with horrible self-criticism or self-doubt, or when perfectionism led me to a decade in Medicine of Success that I was actually miserable living those parts of yourself.
Someone is out there and they read your words and they go, oh my gosh. I felt so seen and I realized nothing is wrong with me. I'm okay. I just need to have some community, or I need some skills to negotiate better for myself, or I just need to learn how to say no. I've never, I'd never, no one's taught me that or, [00:46:00] wow, I need to have some conversations with my partner about helping, around helping me and the help I need.
Um, so. That is to me, what is um, remarkable about both of my books, which are very different books. But some people will come to me and say, oh my gosh, I was gonna quit medicine and I read between Grit and Grace. Or they'll say, oh my gosh, I was, you know. Had no joy. And I read Brave Boundaries, and now I have so much joy because I just realized like I need boundaries. So you'd never know when you shared those hard parts of yourself who's gonna read them and be thankful to you. And that's the cool thing about writing.
Chrissie: It really is. It's um, it's just the cool thing about answering the call, right? Mm-hmm. Connecting to and expressing whatever version of creative wisdom is dying to get out. Mm-hmm. It's like we have spent [00:47:00] our entire life growing and this is the, this is the juice. Like this is the moment of harvest where we get to actually like, be the gift, um, of our lived time on this planet.
Sasha: And don't you find that some of the most impactful people in your life have been people that have gone through something really challenging and been brave enough to share it with you?
Chrissie: A hundred percent.
Sasha: We often think it's like, oh, gonna be the people that are climbing all these. Crazy achievements in mountaintops, and that's those typically. Are not the people for me that I go, oh my gosh, I wanna, I wanna listen to this person's podcast and their story, or I wanna like learn from them, or I wanna sit next to them at dinner. You know? Or like, [00:48:00] 'cause I, they've gone through some crap. Yeah. And they're still smiling, like, what is going on? How is that happening?
Chrissie: Tell me your stories, you know? Mm-hmm. And the story, the Odyssey is always about answering the call, facing some freaking challenges, and then persevering despite those challenges. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. To, to return with gifts. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. May we all be brave enough to persevere through those challenges and return with our gifts. Absolutely.
For those who are in the thick of it right now, Sasha, I mean, this could be the beginning of a whole nother conversation, but I. We'll keep it succinct with if you, what are you channeling right now for people who are in the thick of it? What is, what's the message that wants to come through today [00:49:00] for them in terms of like persevering so that they can return with their gifts and be brave enough to do that?
Sasha: I would say first giving yourself the space to sit in it and to be in it. Because if you don't really sit in the, in the valleys and you don't sit in those hard times and you don't give yourself space to feel, if you just numb yourself, then you're not gonna get the growth that you were intended to get out of this experience. And do not be afraid to ask for help. I mean, I am a person who I. Loves helping others, and I love being the helper, but being the person who is on the receiving end, like we talked about earlier, is a wonderful lesson life lesson. So when you're in the thick of it, like [00:50:00] don't be afraid to ask for help and just sit with it because you will come out of it eventually.
And you will have, you'll be able to look back and go, wow. Like I was really courageous when I asked this person to help me. Or I was really brave when I showed up for my kids, even when I had been crying all day because we were living in a hotel and I went to the soccer game anyway and cheered for my kid or whatever. But you won't be able to do that if you didn't like really, truly sit in it and feel it, and at the same time ask for help.
Chrissie: Thank you for those words of wisdom. Yes. Mm-hmm. We don't want to numb or just deflect off of the messy middle. Mm-hmm. It's, it's actually where the good stuff comes from. Um, thank you so much for being here, Sasha. Um, I. Wanna give uh, [00:51:00] a moment for, for folks to know where they can find and connect with all the different facets of your amazing work.
Sasha: You can find [email protected]. I have a Friday newsletter called the Scoop that I send out, uh, every Friday. And I don't spam you, it's just kind of like what I've learned that week and what's going on. Uh, you can find out information there about my conference that's coming up this September and just my podcast and my little blog I write on Fridays. All of that's on there.
Chrissie: Amazing. I. Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon, friend.
Ditto. Wow. Sasha, Shillcutt you guys. That was a masterclass in resilience, clarity, and the kind of joy that's forged not found on the other side of loss. She brought so much depth and humanity to this [00:52:00] space. I hope you felt it too.
Next week, we're shifting gears just a little, but staying right in that sweet spot of presence and truth with Caesar Cervantes, he's a TEDx speaker, coach, former standup comic, and the author of the upcoming book, Great Speech. He's helped storytellers all over the world, including some of our favorite physician coaches, bring their messages to life. He's smart, soulful, and hilarious, and I know you're gonna love him.
And if you're joining us this November at the Physician Coaching Summit you'll catch Caesar there too. If something in today's episode resonated, it gave you a breath, a truth or shift, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds to leave a review, rating or share it with somebody who needs to hear it. These conversations are meant to ripple, and your voice helps carry them farther than we ever could on our own.
As always, I'm a doctor but not your doctor. These stories are shared in the spirit of connection, healing, and joy. Not medical advice. So I like to say if I'm giving you medical advice, you'll know it.
[00:53:00] If you're craving more presence, clarity, your meaning in your own story, coaching can be a powerful companion. Learn more about our [email protected] or in the show notes. This podcast comes to life through our incredible team, Kelsey Vaughn, producer extraordinaire, creative heartbeat behind the scenes Alyssa Wilkes, who makes every episode sound as good as it feels. And Denise Crane, who's brilliance and creativity keep us grounded and growing. Shelby Brakken our photographer, Denys Kyshchuk the music that holds it all together and sue my partner in life and love. Thank you for walking with me. May you simplify what no longer serves you. May you find beauty in what remains and may your joy, however quiet or wild be your compass forward. See you next time, friends.
