Chrissie Ep 36
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Rebecca: [00:00:00] I think that's one of my favorite things about all of these stories is you actually see that woman grow and change, and it's so powerful to watch that
Chrissie: almost any judgment we have for another person's self-sovereign decision passes when we expand our lens and my judgment is actually my thought error. It's not about a, absolute value of right and wrong.
Rebecca: I think curiosity is where we find the greatest empathy and compassion. That's where we find the deepest joy.
Chrissie: you're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so happy to be joined today by my friend Becca [00:01:00] Thompson, Dr. Rebecca Thompson. We call her Becca. She's a family medicine and public health physician, an advocate for women and children, and someone whose presence is as thoughtful as her words. Her new book Held Together is a shared memoir. Woven with the voices of women navigating the complexity of creating and sustaining family through joy, heartbreak, and everything in between. It is tender, brave, and full of moments that invite you to slow down and really feel and connect with their stories.
Becca has a way of making space for nuance, for truth, and for the small moments that often get overlooked, but matter so much. Today we are talking about this book, how it came to life, what it's taught her, and how we hold both the beauty and the ache as we solve for joy. And I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad to get to talk about your new book and share it with our listeners. Becca, welcome.
Rebecca: Thank you, Chrissie [00:02:00] thank you for that beautiful introduction and for the invitation.
Chrissie: Absolutely. Um, I don't remember what, what post you happen to share in our, um, Oregon Women Physician Group. You know. Mm-hmm. Facebook group, but I was so excited to know about this book and we connected and mm-hmm. I got to read an advance copy and it was just so, so beautiful and I know so many women whose stories would fit between those covers. So I'd like to just kind of zoom out a little bit and, um, talk about how the memoir came together. Um, I'll just give the listeners a tiny little sense of it. This is a, a memoir that weaves Becca's story of becoming a mother, complicated story of becoming a parent in with the stories of other women. And it is not just [00:03:00] all about fertility, it is not all about one thing or another. There are many different challenges in, in this, um, set of beautifully tapestry. Um. Stories of, of coming together as, as parents, as mothers. So give us our, give us a little grounding story about how this came to be.
Rebecca: Yeah. Well I think the origin of this really is back when my husband and I were first starting to think about having a family. It was as I was finishing up my initial residency in public health and preventive medicine and just starting out as a new attending and in really quick succession, we had a series of losses, including some that were life threatening to me. But even as a physician, I just, it didn't protect me at all from how hard this was, how isolating it felt, how overwhelming the whole thing was.[00:04:00]
And you know, in medicine we were used to being there for our patients and we're strong and we work hard and we overcome. So it felt really difficult to talk about something that wasn't going like that for me, for my family, and not because I thought our path should be special or different, just because it was, it was hard to find a vision for how this would end up differently. How something, how we would end up with anything we'd hoped for as we started out.
But as I began to share my story a little bit with my colleagues, with friends, with my own family members, I really found that I wasn't alone at all and it was just the details that varied. So, like you said, Chrissie, it wasn't about everyone having the same struggles, the fertility issues, pregnancy complications. It wasn't about that. It was about how [00:05:00] families are complicated and being human is complicated and the long arc of these stories. Um, and I loved what you said about, you know, it could be anybody I could walk up to, there are 21 other women in this book. I could walk up to 21 people on the street and say, please, can we talk about your story? And we could write this kind of book with. Anybody. This is every woman.
Chrissie: I get chills when you say that because it feels so deeply true. Mm. I mean, how families are formed is so, um, exquisitely human and mm-hmm. Like, we all have our own little fingerprint even. Mm-hmm. Even as there are some components that are the same, um, right. They're very different stories.
Rebecca: Right. So as I began to realize that, I just started to, you know, talk with friends, patients, people who were interested about how might we preserve these stories to offer them back to other people and, and make something [00:06:00] bigger than just the, the suffering that we were going through. Yes. And how could we bring the bigger perspective? And so that we collaborated on these over about 10 years.
Chrissie: I am, yeah. Amazed and interested, you know, that it, this formation took mm-hmm. Most of decade. Mm-hmm. And I love in the introduction to how you give us such a clear picture of you, you know, having versions passed back and forth mm-hmm. Or shared over. You know, coffee dates and, um mm-hmm. It's, I, I really could feel that. And I, at the very beginning you said, you know, being a physician didn't offer you the protection mm-hmm. That, um, maybe some of us subconsciously expect to be a little bit inoculated or protected, either because we have, uh, an ability to intellectualize mm-hmm a predated exposure to various. [00:07:00] Deep sufferings. Mm-hmm. And I am here to back you up. It does not actually. Mm-hmm. The, the chair, if the chair is getting pulled out from under you, you're still gonna end up on the ground. Yeah. You just maybe have seen somebody else fall on the ground.
Rebecca: Right? Maybe you had two chairs and you hopped to one for a minute, but then that one's gone too.
Chrissie: So go down the rabbit hole and the vulnerability of sharing it. I know that in, in the early parts of your story, like so many women and, and families, um. The work of becoming a family or growing a family feels like a very private. Mm-hmm private part. For me, I'm an external processor. Um, I'm part extrovert, but I'm definitely an external processor. And I, I heard someone say yesterday that for some of these external processors or like very extroverted people, they have to actually hear what they, they have to hear themselves say what they think mm-hmm [00:08:00] in order to know what they think. So I am in that camp where I was probably giving people too much information on a regular basis about my fertility journey. But it was helpful to me. Right.
And it was hard for me to imagine being somebody who would keep it inside. I needed people to know oh, we're going through this thing. We have these hopes, oh, these hopes have been dashed. Oh, we have these hopes, oh, these hopes have been dashed. I'm sure it was, you know, rigorous for the people who loved us. Mm-hmm. But you know, they're, they're both, um, they're both truly valid ways and Yeah. And I think that when we do get out of the, um, super secretive part of the journey. Almost every single time, we just find there is an entire world of people around us who were invisible before. Mm-hmm. We're like, oh, mm-hmm.. I also had losses. I also had fertility trouble.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Chrissie: Or I also had, you know, real challenges in [00:09:00] infancy, whether it's postpartum, anxiety, depression, or a baby with extreme colic is one of your mm-hmm. Um, stories, details, Texas
Rebecca: chapter. Mm-hmm. So, you know, what you said really resonated about, um, telling people and then having to pull back, oh, nevermind devastation on that one. Oh, another devastation. I wonder if that's part of what it is for me and how I process that differently from what you experienced, because I guess I'm more of an internal processor as, as you might suspect, from having taken 10 years to write a book about all this instead of Right. Um, but I think the hardest part for me is about the waiting and the not knowing in between the InBetween times.
And so there must be something in me that wants to spare other people that. Right. And so when you don't share things from the beginning, when I didn't share things from the beginning, I didn't have to feel bad [00:10:00] about giving them this burden. I knew they would've been happy to accept it. It wasn't that. I felt supported. I felt like they would've shown up, but I didn't feel the need to burden them. And yeah, it's, it's a really interesting contrast from what you're saying.
Chrissie: It really is. I am sure that, um. You know, a deep dive into the underlying beliefs and motivations would, would bring us lots of interesting fruit. You know,
Rebecca: and they're both, nothing is wrong. Those are both valid ways to process, but a hundred percent, it's a really interesting difference.
Chrissie: Yes. And. Probably people who do it internally prefer that way and will always, and we do it externally will, you know mm-hmm. Be more comfortable in that. Mm-hmm. In that real, um, yeah, it was, it was not without it's [00:11:00] difficulties. Mm-hmm. Being an external processor, um, it did devastate people sometimes,
Rebecca: but it's all a trade off. I mean, for us, I felt when we did start telling people, I felt bad that we hadn't let them in before because maybe they, some of them felt like they wanted to have been let in earlier, and I'm like, uh, I'm not sure you did, but I'm grateful that you would've. And Right. There's also this, I think the thing about waiting, one of the parts of waiting that's hardest is hardest for me, and it came up a lot, you know, in pregnancy there's the whole two week wait, the infamous two week wait
Speaker: I was thinking that in my head. I was like T ww. Yep. This is short s slang
Rebecca: the TTC, the t ww. All the acronyms on and for me, the hardest part, and I think this is true, whether it's related to conception or anything, I imagine this comes in adoption when you're waiting for that placement or the baby is out there but you don't have them yet or any of these things. Um, and [00:12:00] just in medical situations, even now unrelated to fertility, I find that the hardest part for me is when the answer to a question is known know, not only knowable, but like known. It's the test has been run, the results are sitting somewhere and somebody else could know it. I could know it, but I don't know it yet. And it's that it's the unknown known that's the hardest for me. And that that's the part of the story is that were so hard for me too. Like something is gonna happen. Someone else already knows our fate. And it's just out there.
Chrissie: It's like the Schrodinger's cat moment.
Rebecca: Yes, yes. Like, and there are so many ways it comes up in the different stories and people processing their experiences like you do, and some people processing like I did and showing that that range but this makes me think of in Leah's chapter, um, and I'm gonna try not to give spoilers on anything too much, but, um, her story is about one of prenatal [00:13:00] testing and what to do with the results and what choices to make. And she has this moment where her family goes away to the coast, the Oregon coast. She's also an Oregonian. An Oregonian. Several of the women in the book are, but not all. Some are from other countries, even all over the us. And anyway, they're at the coast and she talks about being in this place and giving her peace in a way that somewhere else things are being decided about my life. Things are being known. Things are, things are happening, and yet I can step away from it and let that all happen, and then I'll come back to it and I'll find out. But there's something that she's grateful to be able to give away and set aside. So. Yeah.
Chrissie: I really appreciated also, Becca, how, um, you took us with you on your journey of turning that corner of realizing [00:14:00] alongside different people at different points. Mm. Mm-hmm where you could look back and say, um, oh, I've been doing this struggle. Mm-hmm. I've been struggling with this. I didn't know you were struggling with that too. Mm-hmm. It's like this, like coming apart and coming back together in some of these relationships so that you just characterize, so intimately.
Rebecca: Hmm. Thank you.
Chrissie: Yeah.
Rebecca: And it, it also makes me think about how our judgments of others change when we think about those things. And, um, in Rachel's story, how she reflects after going through some significant complications how she used to think one thing she used to think oh, is this family sharing a pregnancy announcement too early, whatever that means too early. Or why are they withholding this? Why [00:15:00] are they sharing that? She, she realizes and she feels like really grateful for the, the insight now that she had felt too quick to judge others about how and when they chose to share their story and she realized that, again, two sides of things, right? You can. Hold off so you don't have to bring people into the pain if it isn't working out. But also she realizes, well, I want these people to know and to be there if, if something doesn't go as I had hoped. And so even though others might now think I'm saying things too early, I want to tell them so that they can walk it with me, whatever the outcome.
Chrissie: Absolutely.
Rebecca: So even when individual changes, how she processes things and why.
Chrissie: Yes, I can, I can totally see that. I think that my, my journey [00:16:00] was a little bit the opposite direction after sharing early and often. Mm-hmm. We then probably landed at a little bit more of a medium point. Not too much, but like, like for you, for you, your medium relatively speaking. Exactly. I, this brings up so much. Um, I think insight to judgment and the habit we have of judging situations our own, but especially those of other people. Mm-hmm. And I will, you know, just like humbly admit how much. Judgment was part of my woundedness on our fertility struggle. Mm-hmm. Because I couldn't have what I so desperately wanted for quite a long time.
Right. Um, when I saw other people doing it differently than I would do, and I was a pediatrician. I am a pediatrician. Mm-hmm. So I was in primary [00:17:00] care practice at the time. Right. And caring for very lovely families who would make different decisions in the care of their child than I would, and the, you know, emotional reaction, even if I tamped it down and maintained lots of professional, um, you know behaviors often feel dysregulated inside. I would round, for example, in the hospital and see, um, women who were having babies in the midst of their substance abuse journey or in the midst of their home homelessness journey. And it could just be about, you know, whether you're co-sleeping or not that I had judgment. It could be what, you know, what your vaccine, um, hesitation level is, if any. Right. Um, that I would have judgment, so each and every decision point felt like I wasn't getting to flex my decision muscle. Mm-hmm. And if they weren't doing it in a way that I would do it, I would feel [00:18:00] pretty unhinged and kind of angry at the whole universe, frankly, right?
Rebecca: It feels unfair. There's some unfairness. You're like, I'm willing to do anything. I'll do everything right. I promise. Right?
Chrissie: I followed all of the rules. I followed the rules. I have a healthy body. There's no reason, blah, blah, blah, right? Anger, anger, not accepting reality. And all of that aside, what I'm really after right here is that piece of judgment where almost any judgment we have for another person's, you know, self-sovereign decision passes when we expand our lens wide enough. Mm-hmm. If we're only looking at that tiny circumstance and it doesn't make sense and it's easy to judge, we just mm-hmm. Like, zoom out, 5,000 feet, zoom out, 10,000 feet, we're like, oh, this makes sense in the arc of things. And my judgment is actually my thought error. It's not about a, absolute value of right and [00:19:00] wrong.
Rebecca: Right.
Chrissie: I think that is, that is wisdom. That is the work of a lifetime. Yeah. Because we all have an, uh, you know, a tendency to make meaning and judgment. Um, yeah. Out of circumstances around us.
Rebecca: Yeah. I mean, I really do hope that these stories in Held Together help people feel more patient with, and that's the part of judgment, right? Not to jump to the conclusions, right? So I hope that they make people feel more patient with others because you really, truly never know what's going on with someone else individually or in their relationships. And then I think the even bigger reason that that's important, why like to try to even understand someone else's perspective is that I think curiosity is where we find the greatest empathy and compassion. That's where we find the deepest joy.
Chrissie: Hmm. Absolutely. Yes. And we just don't get to see the whole picture. Right. We never do. It's not, [00:20:00] they'll people share parts, but, and the, the story that, you know, I alluded to a minute ago, which is the one that sort of illustrates this the most to me is, you know, when, um, you know one person is suffering through, can't get pregnant, or can't stay pregnant. Mm-hmm. The other person has just had an apparently healthy, perfect baby but we don't know that behind closed doors, they're absolutely like their highest level of suffering imaginable because this baby will not eat, or will not sleep, or will not stop crying. Mm-hmm. Um, that something feels completely not okay in in their world.
Rebecca: Right. Right. Right. And, and the fact that in that moment, now that that happens to be the first story aside from my own, that the reader comes to mm-hmm. And in that moment to see that Tess and I, we were great friends, but we just could not be there for each other. It wasn't that we didn't want to, [00:21:00] that wasn't even a question. We couldn't even get to the do you want to, we, it just wasn't possible. And it took years for that, for us to move through those phases and all of our combined four children now are teenagers. And this is a spoiler I'll give 'cause it's, it's, uh, not detailed, but we really did come back to each other and you see that in the book? Yeah.
Chrissie: That grace gives me chills too. That felt like such a, a soothing, um, end to that journey. Yeah. I mean, not end, but like new point in that,
Rebecca: the moment. Yeah. And I mean, it's really to the point where this person is still one of my absolute closest friends. Someone I'm in touch with as regularly as anyone else in my life. And we've been through much more since then. And, and really be now with whatever that wisdom is, whatever the years, the maturity, just, I don't know, having seen a much wider perspective for [00:22:00] ourselves and our own patients. She's a physician as well as you see in the book, um, we are able to be there for each other when things are going really, really well for one of us and really, really not well for the other. And we can do that at the same time, in the same visit, on the same phone call, anything we, we can really both celebrate and problem solve, lament, whatever it is, right in the same space. We could never have done that back when our kids were little and just. Being born and mm-hmm.
Chrissie: The mark of a wisened friendship, you know, like one that has,
Rebecca: I hope so.
Chrissie: Through the test of time and matured and, um, has complex underpinnings that I've just been, and I'm so grateful for it too, and I'm so grateful for you for it. It's beautiful.
Rebecca: You know, a lot of the chapters talk [00:23:00] about these ideas, you know. Another one that comes to mind is Erin's chapter. She talks about the experience of raising a child with a complex medical illness, and she has this sense when she's younger, less experienced as a parent and a person of everyone walks the same path. And you know, sometimes one path might be curvier than the other and, but we're all here together and moving along. And then she comes to feel that actually, nope, I have stepped off the path entirely. There are no maps. There's not even a road. I'm just over here somewhere and everyone else is walking by. And she, she feels that way and yet with that maturity and that time that has passed in her experience, that she also realizes even when she feels angry or sad or bitter or feels the unfairness of some of these things, she [00:24:00] recognizes that her friends who on the surface look like things are going just fine at the moment they've had their struggles, they've had them again, uh, that they will have them again, and she doesn't need to always align with their experience, but she can just offer herself as someone who can listen and try to understand and to see her change in that way through the chapter. I, I think that's one of my favorite things about all of these stories is you actually see that woman grow and change, and it's so powerful to watch that in her.
Chrissie: I wish that I could pour this book into my 30 something year old brain as I was going through these arc and be like, okay, these are stories like my own right. I have these different outcomes. Mm-hmm. I can be patient, I, my people are going [00:25:00] through things too.
Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chrissie: Um. Let's talk about how writing the book is a, um, an act of solving for joy for you.
Rebecca: Hmm. Well, I generally reject all sorts of Pollyanna, hashtag silver lining kinds of things. So this is my way to make meaning. And i, I also, and we as the book, the collaborators, we reject the premise that everything happens for a reason. So instead we say we will make meaning out of everything that happens and that's a really different lens to me. It sounds subtle, but
His agency.
Rebecca: yes, absolutely. Agency and purpose and using a creative lens. So. I truly, I don't think any one of us would have chosen what we've [00:26:00] been through. Certainly know if we could go back or if we could have looked ahead, you know? Yeah. No one, no one would say that in this book, I don't think. Um, but everybody, I think it's fair to say whether they, you know, literally expressed this or, through the process, felt like they came to this. Everyone has felt like, well, I wouldn't be who I am now if I hadn't gone through this. And so I guess I'm grateful for that.
Chrissie: Yes. And you're allowed to say yes, I'm grateful for that.
Rebecca: So I think it's just such a fine line between oversimplifying things and saying, oh, no, no, like we're just gonna find our purpose and go team and, and giving up and giving in to the lack of joy that really is in so much grief. [00:27:00] Um, so it's a moment to moment choice. I think that solving for joy in this case comes to this idea you've talked about in terms of microdosing joy. It's those tiny details. It's the little things are the big things, and these stories are all about the, the tiny moments and weaving together the pieces to create something much bigger.
Chrissie: As I said to you in one of our phone calls, mm-hmm. I felt the visual of a beautiful quilt with each square, you know, being its own beautiful tapestry and your particular story being, you know, the, um, the edging around the quilt and a material that showed up in the different squares here and there. Mm-hmm. But that kind of thank you. Wrapped 'em all together. Um, it really did feel. Mm-hmm. Put together like [00:28:00] that. And i,
Rebecca: that's exactly what I was going for. Thank you. Thank you for finding that in it.
Chrissie: Yes, I see it. I get it. And you know, I, that makes so much sense to me that, um, I. Solving for joy is making meaning from whatever comes. Mm-hmm joy. Mm-hmm. As you've heard me say on here, um, is about meaning, alignment, and delight. Mm-hmm. And, you know, when delight is not available, we lean into meaning and alignment. Mm-hmm. Until delight becomes available again. Um, because it always will. There, there will be delight again, but yeah. When we lean into our creative processes and, um, answer the call to our creative impulse, I feel like, oh yes, we're in the flow of, of whatever is available to us to make the most of the raw material of our life, which is going to be by nature of relative reality. [00:29:00] Some things we prefer and some things we adamantly do not prefer.
Rebecca: Yes. And I love that concept of whatever's available to us and to me that, yes, putting the good and bad together, like you're talking about here, but it, it also just really emphasizes the point of life being lived in the details because, you know, I'll tell you, our, our kids are a similar age, yours and mine. And so in the past 10 years, you can see how, if this book was written in the past 10 ish years, right?
Chrissie: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca: A lot of this book was written in tiny stolen moments. Yeah. In pieced together. So I would get to, you know, school for pickup. I would get there early and park somewhere that I knew I could stay without interfering with flow of traffic and have my laptop and I would write this book in 20 minute increments.
Chrissie: Yes. Bursts
Rebecca: and bursts and, and I found that really, you asked about the process a little bit. That is what kept it easiest to stay in that [00:30:00] flow. Because if you just. You know. Dip back into it. You can pick up where you left off rather than, oh, I have to have a three hour chunk every other Thursday, or, that just doesn't work for, at least for me, for tapping into this kind of writing where I was trying to integrate, you know, audio files that I had from these interviews with women and maybe some journal entries that they'd given me, or email snippets from updates to friends and family during a challenging time, and I was trying to take everything they'd given me and piece it together and retell that story. Writing it, but using her voice and going back and forth with her. And so the only way to stay in that flow was to just have it kind of front of mind most of the time. And I might be working on, I would be working on several chapters at once and going back and forth with people. But yeah, each one took several years in itself, kind of in truly,
Chrissie: it's just this, this is a figurative quilting. I mean, I'd see the little, the tiny triangle. I hope so. I hope so. [00:31:00] You had in your purse that maybe you were Yes. Work on wild wildly Yes. During the lecture or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These stolen moments, I think you, yeah, you said.
Rebecca: Um. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But we just let go by without considering them. And yeah. I do that plenty also. Mm-hmm. But in this case, I just, I was grateful to be able to, again, make something bigger out of small things,
Chrissie: and it's not lost in me that the moments were stolen because you were busy parenting much of that time. Mm-hmm. Working as well.
Rebecca: Exactly,
Chrissie: yes.
Rebecca: Printing,
Chrissie: yes. One of the themes that you give us a glimpse of from the beginning through the end of the book in this beautiful thematic way, is a relationship to the, uh, kiwi and this arbor outside of
Rebecca: Yes. Opening scene and closing scene in the kiwi arbor. Yes.
Chrissie: Yes. Yep. Um, tell us a little bit about that and, and how is it doing?
Rebecca: Yeah, it's doing great. Uh. [00:32:00] When the book opens, you see that I'm recovering from a surgery and am no longer pregnant. And so in order to figure out something purposeful and tactile to do during that recovery time, um, my husband and I, we had moved into our home in about the past year before that. We were still, you know doing projects and things and making it our own. And so one of the projects was to build a kiwi arbor. We'd heard about these little hardy Kiwis, baby Kiwis that grow well out here. We used to drive down to Malala to buy some, and we're like, we can grow those in our yard.
So we mapped out and built a kiwi arbor, bought the plants, all of that. So. The opening scene of the book is building that arbor, and throughout the book you do kind of see the arbor, the [00:33:00] kiwis, the plants growing and how they climb the arbor and how they develop. And, um, it's an obvious metaphor for many things, um, but it's, it's also, you know, I really wanted to tap into the idea of Seasons of Life in this book and watching growth and change and it just happened really naturally because that was where the story started to me. That was where I kind of changed how I was going to react to the complications. Like, what am I gonna do to keep myself engaged in processing. And this was one of the things and uh, and as I said that at the beginning of the book, they, these plants take years to grow and years to deliver their fresh crop around seven typically. Um, and we were prepared to wait. [00:34:00]
Chrissie: It's such a touching and grounding metaphor. I'm so glad that you have it in real life. Thanks. And I also was, it's real, totally distracted by the thought, what? I could grow Kiwis in my yard.
Rebecca: You can. Only, it'll take, you have to be really patient. It's a metaphor. Okay. Yeah. And it's, it's in our yard. I mean, it's a place that I pass through or see it's outside our bedroom. I see it. I'm in it most days, probably every, I see it every day. I'm in it most days passing through and,
Chrissie: mm-hmm. Okay. Maybe you'll share a picture of the Kiwi with me.
Rebecca: Yes. If, and if it's on my website. Even there's, um, the kind of banner on the top is the Kiwi plant. Yep. Yeah. Even better.
Chrissie: One of the things we, um. Talked about that I was really touched by when, when we were talking before is about all of the thank you notes to [00:35:00] mentors, teachers, mm-hmm. And clinicians who have shaped you uh, we're just a few weeks out right now from, you know, national Doctor's Day, which I'd like to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'd like to rename thank a Dr. Day. Yes. I love that idea. Have thanked so many people who contributed, uh, to this. Yeah. Um, I, I don't know that I'm going anywhere in particular with this. Maybe it's just, um, uh, you know, it'll spontaneously spark a reflection for you. But there are, yeah.
Rebecca: No, I'll echo that. I'll for sure. I'll, I'll pick up on that. I just, everything about this book is not just about me or my family's story. And I want to touch on that question about thanking doctors. But first I want to say how much I appreciate the collaborators and to thank them. Yeah. Because yeah, sure. I could have walked up to 20 some [00:36:00] people on the street and with their consent and interest, collected their stories and talked with them and done that, but, but these are the people who did say, yes, these are the people who knew about it and wanted to participate and it grew over time. And these are the people who have been patient and trusted this project over that decade. Right.
And I mean, to say I couldn't have done it without them is, I mean, by definition that's true. It's a, it's a shared memoir. It's all of our stories, but that just doesn't really get at what that means because it's because of being able to share other people's stories that this project is what it is and can bring so many perspectives. Um, I just, I'm so grateful to be able to work with them and still, I, this is the beginning. Now the stories are out there and I can't wait to see what they do, so I just wanted to really make [00:37:00] sure that the emphasis is on thanking them because this has been the most rewarding thing I've ever done professionally. I can't imagine anything else. I can do in the future that could be more rewarding. So I just want to do everything I can with this project to help other people feel less alone too.
So all that said, of course, there are so many amazing clinicians and just teachers and people who've, for each of us, brought us to this moment and. So in the acknowledgements, I have a some pretty long string of acknowledgement to try to acknowledge all those people and then. I also invited every collaborator to share her own acknowledgement and a few opted out for kind of privacy or said, well, my, my story is my thank you to my family and I respect that too. But most of them submitted something and a wide range of how detailed and, and how [00:38:00] long, and I just love the opportunity to let everybody thank people because. All of us wouldn't have not only gotten through the stories, but come to a point where we could share them in whatever form without all these people.
Um, and so the, I guess the one other detail I would say is that I. In terms of my own medical team, um, well, you see one of those people portrayed in the book that's Devora's story and you see her throughout my story and the amazing things that she does to help me. And then at the very end you learn
Chrissie: one of favorite, my favorite characters from the entire book.
Oh.
Rebecca: Which is like, well, she's a real person and you could meet her and she would love to meet you. I'm sure. So connect you.
Chrissie: I would love to give her a hug.
Rebecca: So, and you get to learn, you know how she became that person who. Cared for me exactly as she would've wanted to be cared for herself. And so, not only do I thank her as a collaborator and as a a clinician for me and my [00:39:00] family, um, I went through the list of people that I thanked in the acknowledgements and I emailed every one of them. I even went so far back as to find, um, you know. Physicians who cared for us back, what was it now, eight, 18 years ago during our complications who live on continents all over the planet, literally. Um, and. College professors who I was an anthropology major, so people who inspired me in terms of telling life stories uh, reconnected with several of them who have just been amazing, so supportive, enthusiastic about the project, giving ideas for literary festivals to come to, and then learning about their books and their partners, their husband's, wives, books about family stories, and I fought some of those books and I'm reading them.
It's the, the ripples are just amazing. And that's why I want to thank everybody is to, to find these, to tap back into those connections. And [00:40:00] it's been incredible already.
Chrissie: It's so rare to do such a thorough job of thinking and acknowledging. Um. I wanna celebrate it. I think that's why I brought it up, really, because it is its own gift. Um, it gives back to the original giver, somebody gave you education, somebody gave you care. Right. Right. And then it gives, it, it completes this circle. Mm-hmm. Which is beautiful on an energetic level and satisfying and resonant. And it gives birth, no pun intended to, to like more ripples. Right? Yes. It's like, oh, and now I can lift up, read this other book, which is I'm gonna share with somebody else mm-hmm who within benefit, who will share with somebody else. And who knows, knows what that spark of q mm-hmm. Does in the world. Mm-hmm. Because you answered this call. Yeah. And also because you are you who happened to have studied anthropology and saw your, your whole [00:41:00] life through the eyes of somebody who studied and was open to studying anthropology instead of just biochemistry, which is beautiful. Amazing. But like it's a different yeah. Different lens. Different lens and yeah. How rare and, um, worthy of celebration that you got to do that deep dive of.
Rebecca: Thank you.
Chrissie: Gratitude and acknowledgement.
Rebecca: Thank you. And it's another example of the details and the small pieces that we stitched together because, um, I got some really good advice early on in working on this book and I, I don't remember, I think I actually read it several places and heard it from a few people, but don't wait to try to write your acknowledgements until like every, the rest of the manuscript is done because you won't remember everybody. And so I started a note. A long time ago, like years ago, and I've been trying, and there were many I added at the last minute, remembering, oh wait, [00:42:00] and this group of people or things that happened or changed.
But in general, I started that a document a really long time ago so that I could try to remember and I. It's a such a long path. It's, it's the little, it's the ways that the little details add up that can become so meaningful, and this is just a very practical example of how that played into the book.
Chrissie: That is a beautiful piece of advice, especially for folks who are acknowledging right now that they have stories or that part of stories. Um, right, that they have a calling to tell and they might not know what to do about it.
Rebecca: So don't be intimidated. Just start somewhere, five minutes, write it down in between scrap paper, note on your phone when you're waiting for school pickup, whatever it is, you don't have to have the perfect moment preserved to start doing the work.
Chrissie: And you don't have to have a manuscript completed. Mm-hmm. To talk to a publisher or a hybrid [00:43:00] publisher or No. Think about self-publishing. You don't have to have everything done. These are, yeah, new revelations for me, and I think there's probably lots of people like me who are like, huh, I wonder if. My book wants to come out. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. At some point I have stories,
Rebecca: um, and don't decide yet about what to do with it, and this, this really comes to some advice that I gave each of the collaborators when, you know, some of them used pseudonyms and some of them used their full details, names, everything, completely unchanged. I say that all of the stories are true, but not every detail will be accurate. We changed some and we didn't, we didn't correct her. If she said something happened, the color of the carpet was this. We don't make her fact check it. Um, but like, just don't, don't think that. So I said to them, don't think that you have to know what you're going to do with your story.
Like let's talk about it. Please tell the most [00:44:00] honest, true, you know, real version of your story that you possibly can. Then we will decide what names to put on it and any details you need to change it like, and so I'd say the same to anyone thinking about writing their story. Just start putting it out there. You don't have to have an agent or have a publisher or even know if you will publish it or just you want it for yourself and your family. Just start following. Those instincts of what you want to do, and I mean, this, it, it takes years and that's okay.
Chrissie: Yeah. What I'm remembering right now, as I had a conversation earlier this week, listeners will have recently heard this conversation with Cesar Cervantes, who's a speaker, a speaking coach, and a speaker. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, his advice to people who would like to do more speaking and get better at it is don't make yourself the hero. You know? Mm-hmm. And what you did here in this book is [00:45:00] you shared your story without making your story, um, an extreme focal point without making, your story the hero of the whole thing. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a unifying component, but it's
Rebecca: Oh, I love that. Thank you.
Chrissie: Yeah. I think that's really well done. Mm-hmm. And what might you say to somebody who's in the hard middle of things around forming a family right now?
Rebecca: Well the in between is the hardest time. Mm-hmm. It really is. It's, it's that the known unknown and the unknown known. You're kind of all in it. And, um, I think that right. We, no matter what we are at sort of in this moment, it's always an illusion that our sure is resolved. So we're all in the middle of it. We're always in the middle and you're just in a more obvious middle. Yeah. At this [00:46:00] moment, maybe than someone else you're looking at. Again, we don't know their story. We think we might know someone else's story, but we don't. They're in the middle too. Um, but they're in the middle too.
It's, it's just that maybe some people think they know or know a little more about how their narrative gets resolved, but it's always changing and I think we all live somewhere in between. What is, what could be, what might have been. Um, and I think just find other people who are struggling with that. It doesn't have to be for the same reasons, just other people who are curious and other people who are willing to connect. and just get through it together. Even if you're not aligned about the same experiences, you can be aligned in. Your questions and your wonderings and help sort it out together.
Chrissie: Yeah. So much of our healing happens in community. [00:47:00]
Rebecca: Mm-hmm.
Chrissie: Good to not go through it alone.
Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Chrissie: Um, I have a strong desire to see this become a, um, like television series because I think that sounds fun. Each one of these chapters is like just such a beautiful arc in and of itself, and to have your story, um, you know, threaded through is, I'm not a screenwriter, but if I, if I were one or if I knew those people, I would be like, this needs to be looked at for sure.
Rebecca: Well, you mentioned the thing about threading it, my thread through the stories, there's, these stories have a ton of Easter eggs in them and people who know us will know some of them, but they're usually quite invisible. But I will say the other friends and physicians within the stories are not typically named. It's like my doctor said this, or my friend, and very, very often in the other women's [00:48:00] stories, I am the, my doctor advised such and such or listened on my belly, the ultrasound or my friend thought I should blah, blah, blah, or helped me with... that's in many of the stories, that's me, but I don't want that to be known because again, it's just all, every woman universal. Mm-hmm. Um, but I love that idea of being able to bring out where some of those moments intersect, um, because many of these women know each other too. Some of them have been each other's doctors and Yep, that would be, so that same character goes into the stories, but you don't see it on the page, but it really is behind the scenes.
Chrissie: Okay. Well, I'm just gonna put it out there into the universe that this happens on the timeline that it should happen so that this can. Be even more widely distributed. And um, that's a fun idea. You know, this may be published around the time of Mother's Day. Uh, I think everybody who has a mom knows a mom is a mom. Um, this would make it an [00:49:00] amazing Mother's Day gift.
Rebecca: Oh, that would be great. That sounds, yeah. And it's a gift to all of us as mothers, I think, just to have these stories out there. So
Chrissie: it is, it is. Um, I am always delighted to get to connect with you and enjoy your brain and the way it, it works. Same. The feeling is mutual. It's beautiful. Thank you for doing the, the labor of love that was writing this book in those stolen moments. Thank you for sharing your story and the story of all of your collaborators. So much honor, um, to them for, for letting their stories be visible and, um, find their own way in the world.
Rebecca: Oh, thank you for the invitation and for being some of those moments of light in challenging times, and I'm really glad our paths have crossed.
Chrissie: Me too. Um, please share a little bit about where our friends can find, uh, [00:50:00] you for either, for obviously for purchasing the book or purchasing, you know, many copies of the book for distribution in particular. Many copies of all the copies. Yeah. My website is the best place everything's there. Or what perhaps podcast invitations or speaking invitations.
Rebecca: absolutely. I love spreading the word about these stories. I'd be happy to talk with anyone and, and I really, really want to get these stories into medical trainee programs. It's really important to me. I'm working on that, but I would love more opportunities for that to teach medical student, just to use the stories, not me personally, whatever. I want these stories to be shared with medical students, nursing students, midwifery students. Social work means psychology programs, like anything you can think of, physical therapy, everyone who would benefit from this, um, especially in training so that they learn to care for families in context, and they know that their patients are people.
So that would, that's amazing. Any way we can get the word out on that? Um, the best way to reach me is just through my website, rebecca n [00:51:00] thompson.com, and there's a contact me link there. You can message me, just emails me from there directly. So that's easy. And. If you do buy the book through my website, you have some options to find a local bookstore. We have some, uh, local shops here in Portland that will have signed copies. You can find there, and if you do use an Amazon link, please do use it through the website if possible because it is an affiliate link to Postpartum Support International. And they will get a portion of the proceeds. We're using some of the proceeds of the book to try to direct them toward PSI and planned Parenthood and other groups that support this kind of work. Um, so if you do buy it through the link on my website that says Amazon to support PSI, um, that will send money to their work with maternal and family mental health as well. So,
Chrissie: and we'll offset any guilt you may or may not have about that.
Rebecca: We have mixed feelings about the large corporations, but you know, that's an option for people who may not live near a [00:52:00] small bookstore too. So
Chrissie: yeah,
Rebecca: use it for good to support PSI.
Chrissie: Big hugs my friend. Thank you so much for being here today.
Rebecca: You too. So great to chat with you.
Chrissie: We'll chat soon.
Thank you so much for being here with us today, and a huge thank you to Dr. Rebecca Thompson for sharing her heart, her story, and the beautiful collective memoir Held Together. If you're celebrating Mother's Day this week, or holding space for the many layers of complexity it can bring, we're sending you love and solidarity.
If you're finding these conversations meaningful, it would. Be so wonderful if you would leave us a review or share the podcast with someone who might need a little extra light in their life this week. Your support helps more people find their way here, and that serves our mission.
Next week, I will be joined by the one and only Dr. Sasha Shilcutt. She's a [00:53:00] cardiac anesthesiologist, a gender equity researcher, a bestselling author, and the founder of the Brave Enough Community. We'll be talking about perseverance, rebuilding after loss, and the courage it takes to reclaim your space in the world. After you've spent too long shrieking, I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.
And if today's conversation started something for you, you're craving more clarity, connection, creative wisdom. 12 by 12 remastered is now live and welcoming new members. It's a coaching experience designed to help you realign with what matters most in work relationships and in your life. If you're curious but not quite sure yet, you are invited to schedule a free exploratory call with me. No pressure, no expectations, just a little bit of synergy and to see if we fit.
If you're a physician, coach, or leader looking to grow your impact and be in community with others doing this beautiful, brave work, I hope you'll [00:54:00] join us in November at the Physician Coaching Summit. You can find all the details, including our incredible speaker lineup at the physician coaching summit.com, or on any of our social media pages. We'd love to welcome you.
As always, I'm a physician but not your physician. Nothing here is medical advice, just personal stories and reflections offered in the spirit of connection and healing. Big thanks to our team, Kelsey Vaughn, producer and creative heart behind the scenes, Alyssa Wilkes, who makes every episode sound as good as it feels. Denise Crane for steady brilliance and operations. Shelby Brakken cover photography and Denys Kyshchuk for the music that carries us home and to Sue my partner in life and love. Thanks for always walking this path with me. May we honor the beauty and the sorrow, hold space for every kind of motherhood and find joy in the small, sacred moments that stitch us together. See you next time.
