Chrissie (Jessie) Ep 35 *done
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Jessie: [00:00:00] it takes courage, it takes that effort, it takes activation energy to find joy. People, I think hope it's just going to show up. Yet it actually takes this intention and, deliberate action that is not necessarily always joyful.
Chrissie: I have been very presence focused in my own growth and refinement and it does take slowing down. You know, Healing often requires us to have pause, which invites presence
Jessie: I think you can't have joy without presence. And you can't have presence without pausing because you have to be in the moment. Right. So it's kind of a beautiful trajectory there.
Chrissie: you're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello everyone. Thank you for being with [00:01:00] us today. I am so excited and honored to introduce you to my friend Dr. Jessie Mahoney today. Jessie is a board certified pediatrician, a physician coach, and a wellness consultant who has spent the last two decades helping physicians find a new way to practice medicine with presence, peace, purpose, and passion. She's the founder of Pause and Presence Coaching, where she works with outwardly successful physicians who might be struggling sometimes underneath and supports them through burnout, transitions, and the big questions of what now. Jessie co-hosts the Mindful Healers Podcast soon to be healing Medicine alongside Dr. Ni-Cheng Liang. And together they hold honest, loving conversations that we need more of in healthcare for sure.
Jessie's approach blends mindfulness, coaching and leadership in a way that feels thoughtful, grounded, and deeply compassionate. I'm so excited to be with her today. In addition to all of this, Jessie's a yoga teacher, a retreat holder, [00:02:00] and the, uh, the homesteader of a beautiful place in Marin called Nio Creek Farm. Um, Jessie, welcome to Solving for Joy. I'm so glad you're here today.
Jessie: So happy to be here. Joyful to be here.
Chrissie: Yes, yes. We get to talk about joy. Um, and there's so many ways that you have explored solving for joy. Many of those we have in common. I think of you as someone who is, um, a little further down, many parts of this path. You've been an inspiration to me in many ways. so tell me a little bit about your path of solving for joy. Like. What is, what has it been like for you?
Jessie: Love that question. And interestingly, I, in the last five years, I maybe have solved for joy, but I spent a lot of time solving for joy in my life. I think, you know, in medicine we're really [00:03:00] trained to look ahead, like what will bring joy and so when I finish med school, I'll be joyful. Or when I have baby, I'll be joyful. Or when I get married I'll be joyful and I know in in my life, it was when I finished training and I have the children and I'm married, I had all the things that supposedly would bring me joy, but I wasn't joyful. And I spent a lot of time trying to be kind of creative about what might bring joy and I had a, I was a leadership junkie thinking that might bring joy, um, and accomplishing more things might bring joy and I realized, you know, had all these things, but I, I didn't really have joy and I would say that wasn't necessarily the word that I used, um, for it, but just wasn't quite right.
Mm-hmm. And, um, so in solving for joy, uh, something that has actually come to mind just this week, and I'm, it's totally off the cuff, but it was a lot of getting rid of things that didn't bring me joy. And I've been writing something this [00:04:00] week about spring and pruning and how you really have to like prune off all the things that are draining your energy or getting in your way. And I think that's true for joy too, right? So the, the grapevine can bloom or the roses can bloom or wisteria. We actually had to cut away a whole lot of it, and then all of a sudden it started blooming these beautiful purple flowers and when you do that, even as a gardener, it's literally terrifying, right? Because you're attacking it off. It is counterintuitive, right? That look good and they're actually fine. Yeah. And I think for me, that was a big, um, piece of it that I had solved in little pieces. And I had done all this wellness work and I had become a yoga teacher and I had become a coach, but I was still very attached to things that were maybe my branches that were okay, but they weren't super healthy and they were sucking up energy that for all the things that might want to bloom. And so for me, solving for joy was probably, um, hacking off a few vines.
Chrissie: I am, I'm receiving that [00:05:00] medicine right now. I'm like, uh, I have a tendency to not prune things and to just keep adding more to my plate. I remember once during coach training, I actually had this very lucid dream about e like piling up my plate on a buffet until my plate was like almost too heavy to hold. I was just like, put more on it. Like, hello, metaphor. Hi. Yeah,
Jessie: that's so interesting. And I, I don't think actually until we had this conversation today, I really likened that to my path to joy. So thank you for that epiphany. And yet it's so very clear. I was someone who, um, was and is multi-passionate and I loved doing lots of things. Yes. And so I hung onto that. Like, let me just add in more things I'm passionate about, okay. Rather than taking things away. And if I think about how I really got to where I am right now, a lot of that was peeling off things. Not just things but roles and [00:06:00] identities and, um, bits that were draining my energy while still taking what, what was me and what was authentically me and inherently me with me. just like the, the hacking of the, the rose bushes, you sometimes don't know, like you sometimes missh hack or don't hack enough and it's a, um, a practice.
Chrissie: It's a, it's a life's work. Um, yeah. Okay. Are you aware of your Enneagram type?
Jessie: I am. I am a three.
Chrissie: I knew it. Yeah,
Jessie: what are you?
Chrissie: I'm a three too. You're a three? Yeah. Okay. Yes, yes. Multi-passionate is the key, right? Yeah. And doing, doing, doing, doing so much. Um, and joyfully for the most part. Yeah. But also the need to prune sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, you're sharing a little bit about the wild flowers and plants blooming at Ncio Creek Farm right now. I [00:07:00] know that's probably bringing you a ton of joy.
Jessie: It absolutely is. And I think back to, I mean, wild, hot flowers have always brought me a ton of joy. It's really interesting actually, in this search for joy. Uh, I have always loved wildflowers and I got married way back in 1993 and, um. I wanted for my wedding to literally have wildflowers. And this turned into a whole to do because apparently you can't have wildflowers 'cause technically you can't cut wildflowers. That's against the law. And like the florist kept saying, you can't have wild flowers. And I was like, no, no, that's what I want. Um, and I ended up, you're laughing, but it's just, it ended up being called Weedy Garden, which was, I guess wildflowers, like sunflower. It's, and, and that's fine. It was close enough, but. I, I'm realizing now that like, that was what I knew before I went to med school even that brought me joy and like the energy of that, and it still does.
So if you're really looking at like clues to things you want more of in [00:08:00] your life, they're always there and funny um places. And I remember my mother, who was actually very anti wedding, we had to go to every florist, like we got married on a hilltop amongst the flowers. But we had to go everywhere and nobody wanted to do this. And she was like, can't you just pick somebody? And like, why do you care so much? And I was like, no, this is the thing I really care about. I, there's so many other things I don't care about, but I care about this and I wouldn't compromise. It was quite, um. What to do.
Chrissie: This is the hill I'm gonna get married on and this is the hill I'm gonna die on.
Jessie: Yeah, it's about my flowers wild and I spend tons of time now amidst the wildflowers. And seeing the wildflowers and finding my path to where I live now really came, um, from a quite a few wildflower experiences. Uh, so it's really interesting to think about that as the journey.
Chrissie: It's really an interesting through line. How beautiful.
Jessie: Yeah. Yeah. And so I will say, you know, um, [00:09:00] five-ish years ago, a little more than five years, I left my longtime job at TPMG and Kaiser, and I didn't leave because it was terrible. I was burnt out. I just had something else to do and I would've not used the word joy. It certainly has brought me joy, but I just felt like that there was something else that I had to bring to the world and I couldn't not do it. That is probably the definition of joy, but I was compelled. Compelled, mm-hmm. To, um, do something different and more, and, um most of that has actually been coaching, which has nothing to do with wildflowers.
But, um, Covid happened right after I resigned and right when I started Pause and Presence. And so the first year to 18 months of it was all coaching and it was all virtual and helping doctors in that moment of real challenge. And then I came up with this idea that I really wanted to do retreats and it came a lot from the, the distress of, of [00:10:00] people who had been working through covid and working through Covid. And there was really no respite and no relief in sight. And I found this beautiful spot which happened to be amongst the wildflowers that would work really well for this. That was never my intention. It wasn't my business plan. I didn't have a business plan, but that all of a sudden that became something I needed to do and was compelled to do.
And I actually spent what, three, a little over three years doing retreats amongst the wildflowers, um, with physicians. And they evolved into this whole thing that has now changed my life. Now I still do what I began with, with the coaching, and that is obviously the, the sort of cornerstone of what I do, but it's become this whole thing that's much bigger than myself.
Chrissie: Love it. Um. When I first met you, uh, Jessie, it was at the International Conference on Physician Health, I believe in Florida and Tammy Ching introduced us, was like, [00:11:00] you need to know all the coaches. 'cause I was really early in my journey right then, as you know, I was a wellness leader in my organization and like just so many overlaps that that I can't even begin to tell you. So it's fun to see where we are now. And then I remember, you know, running into you a couple years ago, also at the same conference, the American Conference this time, um, and your presence there, just, you know, sharing what you do as an exhibitor inspired me to go in this whole journey of like, oh, I, I guess that. That's something that we could do. That's so cool.
So I just, I love, um, I love watching what you do and getting inspired by it. I don't know if you know how many people you're inspiring all the time, but I'm one of 'em. I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. Yes. Resourcing and inspiring. Um, before we started recording, you were sharing this aha about courage and joy.
Jessie: Yeah. And uh, [00:12:00] alongside the sort of pruning, which takes courage, I think it takes tremendous courage to even think about what brings you joy and stepping away from maybe what you're supposed to be doing. Yes. And then it really takes tremendous courage to jump into things that bring you joy and live where you're bringing more and more of that joy. And I think that very often we're thinking about joy and like, oh, I just want more joy in my life. And it's sort of this hopeful thing that we're not really recognizing that we have to, it takes courage, it takes that effort, it takes, um, activation energy to find it. People, I think hope it's just going to show up. Yet it actually takes this intention and, deliberate action that is not necessarily always joyful.
Chrissie: No. It can be really hard. And it, it does take courage to depart from, you know, the, the path most traveled. Um, as I was talking to [00:13:00] another guest recently, uh, she was sharing that, you know, joy just felt like not resonant to her. Like, and I think that's probably true for many people, like Joy is a bridge beyond what they think that they might be destined for or entitled to, and actually invoking the word joy, um, is different than our day-to-day life, you know? Yeah i, I've, I've become so intimate with the concept of joy.
You know, my understanding of it is a combination of meaning, alignment, and delight. Um, meaning is about like we are doing the purposeful thing. We are doing the thing we're compelled to do. There is an icky guy sense to that. There is a sense of mission. Right. And then alignment is not aligning with our over cultures whims, right? But aligning with our most deeply held truth, which usually takes a little bit of living and trial and error to, [00:14:00] to find, oh, yep, that wasn't it. Oh, tried that that wasn't quite it.
Where is where is my deepest alignment and then delight, which implies a bit of surprise, you know, like I am fascinated and, um delighted when I surprise my own self, which happens frequently. Like, oh, I didn't know I was going to do that. I did not know I was gonna, um, create a podcast. I did not know that I was going to, you know, work in pediatric complex care. Like I, there was some foregone conclusions that I had to actually prune in order to follow the truer path each, each round of choosing.
Jessie: I think this surprise is one of the most challenging things. 'cause I think maybe many of us wanna work towards joy or tell me the check boxes and when it comes, it's not that planned out how it all of a sudden arrives. But it is the pruning and it is the tapping into what's most meaningful to you and [00:15:00] what matters most to you. Or, um. You know, what is aligned for you.
And in medicine, we were really taught to ignore most of that by the way. The meaning was serving and caring for people, and that was just defined by someone else. And, um, it didn't matter really if what was aligned or what wasn't. There was a path to do it in a checkbox. And when I trained, it also didn't matter if there was any joy in it. You should have joy because it was a meaningful thing. Um, what what comes up a lot for me with joy and is really interesting 'cause I actually have a, well, for a long time I had a very negative reaction to joy because my institution decided that wellness was joy and meaning in medicine. And we should have joy and meaning and we should be looking for it and we should be finding it. And, um, I kind of, it, it became almost like a, if we didn't, there was something wrong with us, or how could we not find joy and we just weren't looking hard enough or we weren't, [00:16:00] um, I think many people that I worked with around this, they really felt like, well, um, if I don't find joy, then maybe I'm not meant to be in medicine. Maybe I'm made a bad choice.
And what I would say is I'm not sure if that medicine is actually intended to be joyful. I think it's intended to be meaningful. It's can certainly be aligned. It can certainly be engaging. It certainly be fulfilling. But this joy, this idea of delight and surprise, like most of what we're doing is challenging. Now, I, I'm a pediatrician, so there is some delight and joy in that. But recognizing that maybe that, that isn't, to me it doesn't resonate as like the practice of medicine I can have fun or, which is very different than joy.
Because I think to have joy, you really have to be in the moment or in flow. And in medicine we're often not there because we're in such a rush in such a hurry. Maybe we had joy 30 years ago when medicine was different. I don't know. But I think there's this just importance here to sort of, I [00:17:00] recognize like what it is and where you want it and where you can find it, and not also to use it. Like, if I haven't found it, is there something wrong with me? Or if this doesn't bring me joy, what's the problem?
Chrissie: Yeah. It could be that your primary joy is outside your nine to five. That's the truth for, for plenty of people. Mm-hmm. I do think that. Like dopaminergic learning, um, brings me joy. Connection to patients brings me joy. Yeah. I mean, of course when, when I was in primary care and one of my young people would bring me a, a drawing especially made for me, there was so much joy and delight in that. Um, yeah. But I also get like ridiculously excited when a, you know, innovative clinical maneuver works for one of my pediatric complex care patients. Like I'm a big nerd and I love when, when medicine does cool things.
Jessie: Yeah. It's interesting though. 'cause when you say that, and, and maybe that is getting into the weeds about joy, but to me that's like exciting. Mm-hmm. Um, but it [00:18:00] isn't joy. Um, it's, and it just depends, um, I think on your definition of joy and, and I think all of our definitions of joy are different, and yet I hope that joy is a positive thing. I think that's the uniform message of it. It's a positive, energetic thing. Um, and we all feel it in different places and I just want people to understand like they can love their career and maybe still not find joy in pockets of it or not joy in every day of it. And it can still be worthwhile and meaningful. Um, and you can still like it slash love it.
Chrissie: What is one of the, one of the path changes or um, steps in your journey that you felt really required a special amount of courage to find, to find your next thing?
Jessie: I think literally every step has probably required, every big step has required courage, so, mm-hmm. Um, resigning from [00:19:00] my job probably required the most courage because I had been there for 22 years and it's, um a good place to practice medicine and I had a practice that I loved. I loved being a pediatrician. I still, I actually, it was when you were thinking about joy, I was like, oh, I actually did really find joy in being a pediatrician and sort of in mo pockets or moments of being a pediatrician. I love hanging out with children and I love teaching, you know, parents things or empowering them, but so to let go of something that is good for the potential of something that's great or you don't even know what the potential is, maybe it's not great, but you still feel compelled to do it. That took tremendous courage, um, to leave something that, you know, I knew I could do it and it's a good thing to do for the world.
And I hear very often like to leave something you love and something you're good at, like, why would you can't do that? And so that really, um, took [00:20:00] uh, tremendous courage to do that. And, um. I really think starting a business or believing in yourself enough to grow something that's really authentically you, that takes tremendous courage and the joy comes from the authenticity, but then you're not doing what other people tell you to do. You're really leaning into who you are and what feels amazing. And so that takes tremendous courage. And to even say that you're worth doing something that you feel compelled to do and want to do takes tremendous courage. So part of it's letting go, and then part of it's just even being willing to try, takes tremendous courage.
Um, and then I think every time you add in something or subtract something, it even takes tremendous courage to just say, that part feels complete, or I'm not gonna offer that anymore, or I'm going to, that is again, each step of like, [00:21:00] whether it's pruning or redefining or adding always is a, is a risk and, and those of us in medicine are pretty risk averse. So just recognizing, I think for me, honoring this idea that I it takes courage to do every step and it takes courage to live a life that has a lot of joy in it. 'cause our culture says we're supposed to suffer and struggle. And medicine says we're supposed to suffer. Like that's actually a good person, like works really hard and um sacrifices.
And I, one of the things this year I've really decided is that I'm no longer gonna be a hard worker, define myself that way. It doesn't mean that I don't work hard course, but I don't wanna be the hard worker who, the one who works really hard to make things happen. Yeah. I just wanna be the one who does it 'cause she loves it, and however much effort that takes, which is often a lot, that's not the point. But I had really defined myself probably since I was little and my, even in my family, I was the hard worker. That doesn't bring you joy when you define yourself.
Chrissie: No. [00:22:00] It can accidentally bring some martyr vibes with that. I'm, yeah, I'm aware. Yeah. Yeah. The courage to leave something good for something great is really sticking with me. And it, it reminds me of, of skydiving. I don't know if you've ever jumped off an airplane.
Jessie: No, I have not.
Chrissie: But um, it's a lot like that. It's like, uh, why would I leave this perfectly good airplane?
Jessie: Yeah. Yeah.
Chrissie: Oh, in order to have the experience of flying
Jessie: Yeah. Through the air. Yeah. That's why it's amazing yeah, leaving my house in San Francisco and moving here was a huge risk and um, took a huge amount of courage to believe that I could make it work. And, you know, presumably I can, but, but again, it just took, it's kind of like a leap of faith, but it's also like. Um, again, it's, it's leaving something good for something that's potentially great and it could not be like, you just don't know. I feel many people in medicine stay stuck because it's good enough. Like our jobs as physicians are [00:23:00] good. They pay us well. We enjoy it. We worked hard to do it, and it's like, well, uh, this is okay, and you get to decide.
Chrissie: Yeah. They're living like a, a five outta 10 version of the life they could have. Mm-hmm. And they, um, may become complicit with the culture's message you should be happy with. Right? Yes. You are so much more fortunate than, and then there's suffering comparison. Um, yeah. Yeah. But it is, it is not useful. It's actually not what leads us to our highest self-expression.
Jessie: And I also say many people don't need to leave to find joy. You mentioned a whole bunch of things. Totally like it's reconnecting with that joy and maybe your joy is outside and maybe you do this. It, it doesn't have to be any either or. Uh, and I think sometimes our, our culture in medicine now is like, I have to get outta practice to find joy. And I don't think that's true. That's not true. Um, but you have to be able to find a way [00:24:00] that makes you feel alive and engaged and whatever that is for you.
Chrissie: Right? Right. And you have to protect yourself from that, which is noxious Yes. And harmful. Absolutely. Um, and move toward that which brings you well, joy, you know, meaning, purpose, alignment, um, or at least satisfaction. Yeah. Um, how long have you been doing the Mindful Healers podcast now, Jessie?
Jessie: We have been doing it for over four years, so we started in like January, 2021. So we're, this week is episode 250, actually, which is pretty crazy.
Chrissie: Oh wow. That's incredible. Yeah. That's amazing. What sparked you, uh, and Ni-Cheng to start this?
Jessie: Really we thought it would be fun. And what was really interesting is that we were each gonna do it separately and then we, I'm not quite sure how we decided to do it together, except that we thought it would be more fun to do it [00:25:00] together. I. And it wasn't really around, oh, I need to do this to promote a business, or, oh, it wasn't about that at all. We just thought, wouldn't it be fun to have a podcast And mm-hmm at the time, I wrote a ton of blogs and she was doing all of this, and we just thought, let's just do this and have fun with it and see what happens.
And many people ask like, well, how are you still doing it four and a half late years later? And how did you get to this? And I will say, because we have fun with it. Yeah. Um, and we don't take it too seriously and we, um, we also allow it to evolve and change. And, you know, some episodes are both of us. Some episodes are one of us with a guest. Occasionally we do it by ourselves. Um, I. we have covered for each other when something else is going on. And so it's been this real labor of love that became something really bigger than ourselves.
And I think so many people come to me and they say, well, how did you plan this out? And what's the step someone? We had no plan. We just thought we'd try a [00:26:00] podcast and see if it was fun. And if we enjoyed it, we would keep doing it. Um, and I know we've learned a lot and changed a lot and. We aren't doing it in the way that we did in the beginning, and that it has really just become this thing that's fun. There's also obviously positive feedback keeps you going. And I'll say, I do think that's part of it, that people come back and say, this really helped me and this thing, and so then you're like, oh, well let me keep doing it.
But that's also why it's fun, is because it's meaningful if, if it wasn't meaningful on the other end or helping people on the other end. It wouldn't bring that same, um, level of joy. I don't think of it again as work anymore. I just think of it as like, oh, what are we gonna talk about this week? Or, um, I really try to go with whatever inspires us. So sometimes we'll have a list of topics we're gonna talk about and then we're like, actually, we're not gonna do that. Let's do this. 'cause this is what's going on right now. Yeah.
Chrissie: This is what's alive today. Yeah. [00:27:00] Um, it's self-reinforcing fun. I really identify with that. Um, I think that I started the podcast because it sounded fun. I, I'm reminded of Rick Rubin's book, the Creative Act, which if anyone has not picked this book up, I find it an incredible resource to access and, and to give permission, um, to our inner creativity because. The act of having a conversation is a creative act, you know, and there's that compulsion showing up again, that urge, that creative impulse of like, I am here to create something, something that I think is beautiful or fun or enjoyable or of service or hopefully all of those things.
Um, and I just think of the podcast for me is my creative work. It's my creative practice. It's one of them. And I love numbers. Numbers are fun. Um, you know. But they're also the thief of joy. Like when [00:28:00] I, when I start to attend to like, oh, how, how many downloads? Like stop it. Mm-hmm. The point is being in this moment, having beautiful connection and conversation with inspiring people, doing incredible stuff in the world. I used to think I was gonna write a book called My Friends Do the Coolest Shit, and instead I have a podcast where I get to platform my friends who do amazing things.
Jessie: Oh, I love that. I wanna reflect on creativity too, because this is probably another path to joy. Yes. And what I'll say is I grew up thinking I was not creative. Um, I have a brother who's extremely creative and extremely artistic. So he was the creative one, and I was the hard worker, as I mentioned. Yes, yes. And I have told myself, even until I was 50, I was not creative. I was just not creative. And, um, what I realized is actually teaching yoga for me now is creativity and gardening is creativity.
But if you had told me before I started the podcast that it would be about creativity, I would've been, oh, [00:29:00] well, and I won't do it because I'm not creative, you know, but I have, I, I now give myself permission to do things that would be fun. Because they're fun and on the backend, they're a way of me to say, oh look, I am creative. I have a podcast. I teach yoga. I, you know, um built garden, right? I create retreats, I create spaces for people. Um, I write a lot that's all creative, but that language for me was really challenging. And so, uh, it's really funny. I think that creativity and leaning into your creativity, and if that word is triggering for you, pick a different one, but allowing yourself to express yourself in a way that's authentically you does help you solve. I love this. Solve for joy, right? Find it. Yes.
Chrissie: Yes. Um, I love how you are modeling evolution. Like that is an absolute model and example of evolving and what it sounds [00:30:00] like is also that all paths lead back to our true selves, which we are all creative. My friend Liz, who was one of my first guests on the podcast, uh is a creativity coach and she is constantly reminding the public through her posts, like, oh, you wondered if you were a creative person or you wonder if you could become a creative person. Oh, too late. You already are. You know, because we are all in inherently creative. We may not all be painters or sculptors, um, but when we are connected with our deepest selves, there is creativity. There just is.
Jessie: So I think leaning into it, yes, it's a powerful path to finding what lights you up and makes you feel alive.
Chrissie: Yes, yes. Um, tell us about your favorite retreat memories.
Jessie: Mm. Well, one, [00:31:00] um, was we started this by listening to a song. And that song I, yes, we did. It's, it's called Wild Flowers. And that song, I didn't, I mean, I had heard it, but I hadn't really resonated with it. And it was after a retreat a couple years ago. Um, we would go hiking amongst the poppies and on the way back someone knew that song and started playing it, and we just listened to it. Literally, it's the Wildflowers by Will and Jennings. We listened to it over and over and over again. Um, and then I started bringing it into yoga classes after. So very often in my retreats, we'll go hiking and amongst the wildflowers, and I always bring that back and play it again, like as like part of a yoga class or as part of something else. Uh, and so for me, the, that is really one of, they are one of my favorite, favorite moments.
The other thing in retreats that I really love is, and as a coach, you'll know this, those moments of epiphany where someone all of a [00:32:00] sudden like gets it and they're like, oh, this is how I've been holding myself back, or This is what I really want. Um, it's very often, honestly, people cry too, which sounds terrible that that would be one of your favorite moments. But release, it's Yes. Yeah. It's where they have that connection. And that comes because of the way I do retreats. It's often like, it'll be outside on a chair by a pool or it'll be under a tree or it will be, um, in a certain spot. And it's very often not a moment that was intended to do that. It's just when it happens.
And so that's where I find, they're really just amazing moments and you have to just capture them and pause. I have a practice that I do hand to heart, and I often call them hand to heart moments where like they're just those moments that just like feel so real and lived and alive, whether good or bad. But that, that, those moments are the ones that really are [00:33:00] meaningful to me. And it's interesting 'cause they're not the, the, you know, the curated farm to table thing or they're not. You know, people will say, oh, it was when I did this thing, but it's when I sort of notice it and it's always hidden. It could be hidden if you didn't pause to appreciate it.
Chrissie: Yes. I love the name of, of your coaching business. Pause and Presence. Um, it's, you know, when I, when I learned that, you know, connection mitigates trauma, my next thought was presence is a prerequisite too connection and I have been very presence focused in my own growth and refinement. Um, and therefore, you know, also in my work as a coach, and it does take slowing down. You know, healing often requires us to have pause, um, which invites presence when we are not moving at a a, a pausing [00:34:00] capacity state. Our presence is like hovering somewhere up here, upwardly, displaced above our head, you know? Yeah. Um, but have it drop in our body and have a somatic experience that actually invites multidimensional integration. Yeah.
Jessie: Yeah. And I think you can't have joy without presence. Um, and you can't have presence without pausing because you have to be in the moment. Right. So it's kind of a, a beautiful, um, trajectory there. And I think the pause too, I hear from so many people. I mean, pause is one of the reasons I do retreats. It's like a big pause, um, or a few day pause. But it can also be micro pauses. And I think sometimes we overcomplicate the pause. I have to take a sabbatical. That's the pause I need and. That's lovely, but, or go on a retreat or it can be a micro moment, could be five minutes at lunch. It could be pausing it to take a breath. It's even pausing to just, um, I love newborn [00:35:00] heads as a pediatrician, so like just to sniff before you move on. Right. Or feel them. And so it's, it's, that is a moment of presence or a moment of silence even could be presence then very often. When we're focused on what needs to get done or where we're trying to get to, you miss those moments.
Chrissie: I got to visit four little newborn heads this morning. Unre this morning. Wonderful.
Jessie: Yes, they're my favorites. People often ask me, what do I miss? That, um,
Chrissie: so sweet. So sweet. Um, I remember this moment and I can't remember what trip I was coming back from, but I, um, tuned into Mindful Healers podcast at some point, and I think it was Ni-cheng and I think the concept, you'll tell me if you remember this, was, uh, responsibility hoarding. Mm-hmm.
Jessie: Over responsibility. Yes, yes, yes. And toxic independence.
Chrissie: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. Toxic independence. It was actually [00:36:00] that, which of course they're related. Yes. But I almo, like, I just stopped the podcast because I had such a download from that one phrase. I was like, oh my gosh. I, I am having a deep download and understanding. I need to write this out. And it has become like something that I frequently share with other people, um, because it was so concisely and understandably.
Jessie: It's a really good podcast and for humor's sake, um, it was concisely put that way because we actually tried to do a podcast that had self-sacrifice and martyrdom and over responsibility and toxic independence all in one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And as we got into it, we were like, oh my gosh. Like this is not an all in one thing. It actually, we had to like actually come back another day and break it into multiple podcasts and make it clear.
Because before we really delved into this, it was all part of being a physician that overlapped and was confusing. And yes, it does overlap, and yes, it's intertwined, but [00:37:00] laying out those four pieces of the way we were trained to show up, sacrificing yourself. If you didn't sacrifice yourself, you didn't care. And if you weren't a martyr, you weren't a good doctor. And if you didn't take, we were asked in medicine to take responsibility that's not ours. But then more people resonate with what you said, which is toxic independence, which we weren't actually taught. It's what we took from all those things. Right? It's our trauma response. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am good at it and I do it fast, and so I'll just do it myself
Chrissie: and um, then, then people and they can't necessarily depend on the structures around me to do it, so it's me. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie: But people will also, um, say that, well, what do I do if the other people don't do it? They're so attached to it and it's like, well, sometimes you have to let something drop. That's the courage, right? To let it go and to change. And it's, it is one of those things that needs pruning and maybe not a hundred percent pruning. Um, I think that you can choose when it's helpful and when it's not. Independence [00:38:00] is helpful. That's the other thing I always say. How do you know it's toxic? Because you're burnt out, resentful, angry. It's like the how you feel when you practice it. And that for me is really helpful 'cause I still practice it sometimes and I'm like, oh, hmm. Right. If I feel that way, that's right. I've, it's become toxic. That's right. And we, I think you're around the same generation as I am. We were raised like independence is good. And so the more independence, the better. The more you do yourself, the better the more you push. And yet when we end up with all these negative feelings, that's our, our clue. And it's life changing. Yes.
Chrissie: Um, I ingested a bit of toxic independence in like adolescence and became a self-sufficient 18-year-old, um, mm-hmm. You know, like many things happened because of a, a rigid stance that was like, I will do it myself. It will maybe take me longer. I will pay more for it. I am fine with that because I will [00:39:00] not have to depend on other structures that at the time were problematic. And it took a long time to unwind around that closely held identity that propped me up or made me feel strong, um, and also cut me off from healthy interdependence, cut me off from other ways of receiving and flowing with the environment that was actually the supportive environment around me.
Jessie: It's exhausting.
Chrissie: It is exhausting.
Jessie: Yeah, and I think though, you know, we're taught it's valuable, it's important. We, we glorify it, you know, independence and doing it all yourself, and yet when you get help, you can actually do much more. So true.
Chrissie: If someone listening right now is feeling a bit stuck or out of step with joy. Jessie, what would you offer from your perspective today [00:40:00] as a place to begin? Take a pause.
Jessie: That's what comes to mind, right? Like if you're feeling stuck, you don't wanna stay stuck, you wanna keep going forward. But taking that pause so you have space, I think so many people say, well, I can't stop doing what I'm doing if I don't know what's next. And what's next is almost always found in the pause. If what's next is something you want to feel different than what you're doing. So it's interesting 'cause that's probably why I call it pause and presence, right? You have to have the pause, and then you have to actually be present in the pause. So oftentimes people will say, I have a sabbatical, but I'm gonna go travel across the world and I'm gonna see all these things. I'm gonna do all these things. That's not a pause. Actually, it's a, it's a, it's a bunch of doing.
And so taking that pause, and it doesn't have to be a long pause, um, but the, I think even, you know, three and four day retreats can change your whole life. But gifting yourself the pause and prioritizing that pause and then breathing in the pause would be the other one. I think that we [00:41:00] hold our breaths and we don't like, actually that's how you end up present in that pause. And in the pause, I think you also can't really connect with joy. Um, so if you're not present, but if you're in some patho mimetic storm where you're just overwhelmed, like you can't find the joy, you miss it.
And when you're totally depleted and exhausted, you can't find the joy. Um, I often say those are sort of prerequisites for rewiring your mind and figuring out how you wanna move forward and connecting with your truths. And they're also true for finding joy. Uh, I think the other one that I put in that category and I was trying to decide how does it relate to joy?
And I think this is how, so you can't hate yourself into change, but you, you can't also sort of hate yourself into joy. So the idea of like, I'm not creative so I won't do it, isn't gonna get you any joy with some creative endeavor. Um, and so it's really sort of that open-minded, open-hearted. It doesn't have to be I'm [00:42:00] amazing or things are great, but just the, the hands wide open of mindfulness, which is again, the presence, but that, um, with those, it's really hard to move forward. And then after, you know, in the presence and in the pause is where you can reconnect to your authentic self, who you are, what you love, where you, what you value. Um, and it I am not someone who's like, you have to make a list of your core values and you have to do these things very often it's intuitive. Very often it's in your body and your somatics and your cells. If you take the time to do that, and very often we skip that piece. We're up here in our head. I.
And so it's in that pause you really have to attend to both. You can't just force your mind to change without taking good care of your nervous system and your cellular structure and the depletion and those things. So I think if you're stuck, I. You have to pause and breathe, and then you're gonna be present and really reconnect with yourself, and that's where the clarity and [00:43:00] intention comes. I do think also we tend to be reactive in medicine and we're reacting to things rather than being responsive and being intentional. And deciding where we wanna head. So many people wanna leave something, but they don't know where they wanna go. You don't have to know where you wanna go, but you can know how you wanna feel. And maybe it's joy or maybe it's peace. And I, I really think it's so important to think about how you wanna feel in life and build the life that makes you feel that way. Um, and you might feel a whole bunch of other ways.
Um, and I'll give the example that, that the life I have now came from a desire to, um, feel alive. That was the word. Like I really wanted to feel alive each and every day, which is also not always good. It's both right, and it's not necessarily joy because it's joy and sadness and excitement and it's, it's really all the emotions rather than just feeling dull. Um, maybe sparkly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that, [00:44:00] again, sometimes we have these lofty ideas of, I want a life of joy, or I want a life of peace and more peace, more joy. But really connecting with something that you do feel and how, if you felt that way, what would you do? Like there's all these clues there, but not a checklist and not a roadmap of do X, Y, and Z.
And so that's what I would say is that's really being open-minded. Open-hearted, but you can't do that if you're depleted and you can't do that if you're in a cortisol sympathic storm chaos overwhelm, and you can't do that if you think there's something wrong with you that you couldn't figure it out. I think so many of us are stuck. What's wrong with me? Why don't I like this? I was here for a while. Why don't I like this? This is everyone else's dream job, right? I, I'm the chief of wellness. Why don't I love it? Why isn't this enough? And you can't figure out what's out there for you from the, what's wrong with me?
Instead of saying like, wow, I had, this is all amazing, and when you're [00:45:00] satisfied, this is good. But what I'm, what do I feel compelled to do? What do I feel excited? What do I feel inspired about? It's not always a huge change. Sometimes it's the pruning of, if I just create space here, and that's a bit of the pruning too, right? The getting rid of something. So many people wanna exchange it, but create the space and then that's how you get unstuck.
One other thing is this idea, um, and I read this in a book called The Journey to the Heart, which you might know, I'm blanking on the name of the author, but it's these short daily passages and they're all love of heart inspired. Uh, it's the woman who wrote Codependent No More so Melody Beatie. Mm-hmm. Um, and she has one in there about getting unstuck. And when you get unstuck in a car, it people aren't watching me, but I'm rocking. Right. Yeah. You have to go back and forth to get unstuck. Yeah. There's that movement and it's a slow sort of momentum, like when you just push, you don't get anywhere. Mm-hmm. So I think those of us who are [00:46:00] high achievers and like thinking about goals, we're like, well, I'm stuck. But you have to just start like shake yourself loose, shake off some of the dirt or shake off. Maybe you have to take some weight out of your car. I like to think of that analogy 'cause then it's like, oh, maybe I'll try this, maybe I'll, you know, shake the car sideways and see what happens. And very often you start to emerge and then you have more clarity.
Chrissie: And one of the ways that people pause. Well, right now, this is funny. Not a, not an expected pause, but I'm doing some locums work here and there. I. And it's a pause for me. It feels like, yes, it's a working retreat, but there's actually a lot of solitude and retreat ish time in it. Yeah. Which is so good for my creative self and my nervous system.
But a, a much more enjoyable version of that would be retreats with Jessie. So, um, tell me a little bit about, um retreats and [00:47:00] how people listening might learn about them, um, if they're only open to physicians or female physicians or if it's broader. I don't know the answer to those things in advance. So.
Jessie: Yeah. Um, so you can find out about them on my website. That's the easiest place to find them. And it's my name, Jessie mahoney md.com. It's also pause and presence.com. So you can find it either way. And there's a retreat tab, so you click on the retreat tab, um, and then it has information. About them. And I do a number of different retreats actually, which is kind of interesting, which is why you don't know the answer. So, I do a one day retreat, which is actually not in n cascio, it's at a place called Pi Ranch. It's the Sustainable Farm, near Half Moon Bay and, um, near Watsonville, which you said you go to and. Um, that one, I, I partner with a pediatric cardiologist and it's actually open to everyone. I would say 98% of the people who come are in medicine.
And sometimes who people will bring spouses or partners, which is really cool because they [00:48:00] then have a more of an understanding of how we think and how we approach life. And that has been a really powerful experience. Um, so that one anyone can come to. And I, um. I have also done Ni-Cheng and I have done for a few years one called Connect in Nature, which is open to anyone also. That one, I am not quite sure what's gonna happen with it this year actually. We both have a few unexpected, exciting things happening, so we may actually, um, skip a year and do it next year, but that one's always been open to everyone, men, women, doctors, not doctors. Again, it's always 98% people in medicine. Um, but, uh, they're both really wonderful and that one is really focused more on mindfulness. And con in nature. So we're not doing mindfulness inside. We're doing mindfulness in the trees and mindfulness on the dirt and mindfulness in the wildflowers and all those things.
And then the primary retreats that I do are at, um, NIO Creek Farm, and those are I say women in medicine, again, 98% women [00:49:00] physicians. But I have had some PAs. I've had some um, pediatric dentists, I've had nurse midwives and generally people who are not a physician just ask me if they'd fit in and generally people who asked do fit in. Um, and so I kind of just, I don't want to be exclusive because I think we're all on the team and I have found that people really do learn from each other and my. My vibe is not to exclude anyone, but for the most part, those retreats, um, are women physicians. And I do think for those we have to be the same sex because we share intimate spaces and that's just easier.
Um, I have it kind of dabbled with the idea of doing couples retreats. I have a lot more flexibility now, and so if people wanna do retreats who are not in medicine, really what you need is a group of five to seven people to do them with. Because I don't have enough, I people who are not in medicine and to make those work by putting 'em on a schedule. Um, but I've had some people [00:50:00] reach out who wanna do things with daughters and daughter-in-laws and mothers or, you know, something that is a team. A team. Many teams have come and done retreats. But the main retreats I do are for women in medicine.
I also do retreats for teams now day, mostly day retreats, though sometimes once people have done something longer and, um that can be, you know, whatever your team looks like, you get to decide. So it could be physicians only, could be clinicians only, could be hospitalists only, could be a health system. Like I've done them in all different varieties and it's really, um, fun and there is a very different energy when you come with colleagues versus my other retreats. People come from every specialty and they all work in different places and that brings a tremendous power, bringing people together. I have a lot of Canadians who join me also, and I think even hearing about how medicine is in another country, we all have so many stories about it's better in this specialty or it's better in this health system, or it's better in [00:51:00] Canada. And to have that sense of belonging and that we all are experiencing what we're experiencing, the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful, um, everywhere.
And so it's really powerful and I they're really, you asked uh, what brought me joy. And I have found that retreats really bring me joy. I love gathering with people and I love being, having that intimate sense of connection. And what I see and what I can do in a retreat, which I cannot do coaching online, is, is we do yoga, we spend time in nature, people get replete um, we eat you know, amazing farm grown food, often we harvest it ourselves. Like that whole experience changes what you're open to and what you're able to shift. And the collective group of people who come, usually not knowing anybody. Sometimes people come with a friend, but. Is really phenomenal. I have groups that still have text change like three and four years later. They've created, you know, they found friendships [00:52:00] and that is just a really beautiful thing that, um, was not part of my plan, but boy has it been really fun and really impactful and, and something I'm gonna keep doing 'cause I love it.
Chrissie: So good. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad that, um, people can find that. I'm gonna go find, it feels really inviting right now. Uh, yeah. Thank you for bringing your wisdom and your fresh eyes, and your courage and your joy to, um, our conversation today. Jessie, it's been such a pleasure to have you.
Jessie: It was my pleasure. So nice to reconnect.
Yes.
Chrissie: Dr. Jessie Mahoney, y'all physician coach, retreat leader, and master of the mindful pause, she reminds us that joy isn't something we earn by hustling harder. It's something we reclaim when we pause, prune, and make space to [00:53:00] bloom.
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Next week, just in time for Mother's Day, we are gonna be joined by Dr. Rebecca Thompson, family medicine public health physician, and author of Held Together a beautiful, brave, and deeply human shared memoir, exploring the complexity of creating and sustaining family through joy, heartbreak, and everything in between. You won't wanna miss it, and trust me if you don't know what to get the moms in your life for Mother's Day. This is an amazing book.
And if today's conversation starts something for you, if you're craving more clarity, connection, and creative wisdom in your life. 12 by 12 remastered launches later this week. May 1st, it's a 12 week coaching experience designed to help you [00:54:00] realign with what matters most in your work, your relationships, and your life. If you're curious but not quite sure if it's the right fit, I invite you to schedule a free exploratory call with me. It's just a conversation. No pressure, no expectations, just a chance for us to meet, connect, and learn a little bit more about where we are and if there's synergy. That makes 12 by 12 remastered the right next step for you. There's a link in the show notes. I would love to meet you. Have a wonderful day, guys. Keep solving for joy.
As always, big thanks to our team, Kelsey Vaughn, producer and creative heart behind the scenes, Alyssa Wilkes, who makes every episode sound as good as it feels. Denise Crane for her steady brilliance and operations. Shelby Brakken for cover photography and Denys Kyshchuk for the music that carries us home. And to Sue my partner in life and love, thank you for being so cute and for walking this path with me. Let your pause be sacred, your pruning be intentional and your joy. Be wild and real, just like the wildflowers. [00:55:00] See you next time, friends.
