Chrissie Ep 29 (Jillian)
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Jillian: [00:00:00] even if we look amazing on paper, can get to a point where we don't think our life is worth living. We don't know who we are without our titles and to be part of a community that can normalize these discussions I think is so important and often shame keeps us silenced.
Chrissie: when we do high performance things that are aligned with our authentic selves, voila, chef's kiss, right? But when we are rewarded for the behaviors that actually take us further and further away from our authentic selves, it gets so tricky because we're in a cycle of reward repeat behavior, just like any being with learning capacity would be without the intervention of a higher point of view,
Jillian: those parts of ourselves have a role. They're protecting us from this deeper wound. So if we can give love to this protector, that's trying to keep us safe from some other pain that's underneath, [00:01:00] um, then we can honor it. It's not there to be a negative thing. It's not there, to say that you are weak.
Chrissie: You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Greetings and welcome to today's episode of Solving for Joy. I have the great honor of having as my guest today Dr. Jillian Rigert. Jillian is a dear friend, from the interwebs, uh, who happens to be a former military oral surgeon, a medical doctor, a master certified Wayfinder coach, turned therapist in training. She has many hard won insights about living with a challenging disease. And has a YouTube channel where she generously shares and teaches and interviews others, um, about topics like [00:02:00] recovering from trauma and toxic shame and addictions and eating disorders, et cetera. Um, so this is going to be a delightful conversation. I have no doubt. Jillian, thanks for joining me today.
Jillian: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Chrissie, it's nice to be here with you. Yes, we are pumped. I am pumped. I'm especially, I mean, people missed it, but, you know, a little behind the scenes, if you get people dancing and really comfortable to join you, and then who knows what's going to rip roar out of us. It's going to be an authentic conversation.
Chrissie: Anything could happen. That's right. Anything could happen here today. Um, so we talk about solving for joy, and I know, I know a bit about your backstory and I will invite you to, uh, share, you know, a thumbnail sketch of like some of the, the pieces that brought you to this point where you are sharing and amplifying and transmitting insights and wisdom to others, um, in a way that's very different than, uh, when you were [00:03:00] training and serving as an oral surgeon and medical doctor.
Jillian: Yeah, well, thank you for the opportunity, yeah, for the Air Force, I actually ended up transferring out of oral surgery residency, so just to, so people know kind of where, where I landed with that. So I actually never, um, became a full fledged oral surgeon, um, but, I, I just, you know, for anyone that wants to find me later and refer their patients for oral surgery, uh, you know, I will, I will, I will pass that on to, to somebody else who I trust. So, uh, just so that they know, uh, you know, it could be a great referral source to another person.
But I think, you know, in your podcast is so beautiful in the, in the landscapes that you cover about really learning uh, behind the, the, the scenes about people's lives outside of their career titles. And that's really the investigation that I have been on for my own self, because a lot of us in our performance based culture attach our identities [00:04:00] to our career titles. And for me, I held on to the belief that once I became an air force oral maxillofacial surgeon, which now people know, I never fully became. I thought I would be worthy. Uh, and I felt I would be whole. I felt that I would feel the sense of pride and accomplishment.
And when I was in residency, I just felt more hollow. And, you know, I was full of self doubt. And so my program director is like, you're doing, you know, you're doing really well. This is probably just a self confidence. But within myself, I felt like it was a spiritual crisis, like an existential crisis, a spiritual crisis, something was so off. And I didn't have the name for it, and, and people weren't really talking about burnout or moral injury at that time, so I have different words now, but I do think spiritual crisis aligns pretty well for the extent of what I was experiencing.
But what I had realized looking back is that when I was a child, before I [00:05:00] was fully influenced by societal pressure to be and look a certain way, My name was silly Jilly. Like I had this joy for life, you know, I had this vigor for life and I was so curious and I just enjoyed being outside and being part of things. And eventually my world just kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And my connection to my own self kept getting further and further and further. And my connection to other people became, uh, really distant. You know, I shared with you that online it looks like I'm highly connected. I'm, I'm very connected online, but in, in my daily life, the impact of trauma had become such that my life had become so restricted and narrow and I isolated. And part of my isolation, um, after I was medically discharged from the military for getting help for my mental health, part of my isolation came from this deep shame and that deep shame almost led me to lose my [00:06:00] life. Um, Um, from suicide.
And so I speak now, a lot of my mission has been shaped by that healing journey. And I'm part of my own healing about learning that our worth isn't attached to these titles. Uh, what helps to start free me from that shame was in sharing my story. And I initially shared my story on Kevin MD thinking that people were going to validate my own feelings about myself, which included that I was worthless and a burden and whatever. But I had shared the story because I didn't want to die before I released that information just in case my story could help one person because one person sharing their story helped me so much.
Um, so my original like motivation wasn't necessarily to relieve myself. It was because I thought if I'm not here, what do I want to leave behind? And it just turned into something so much different in a, in a, in a really deeply, powerfully healing way. And [00:07:00] so I hope anyone that might be hearing this in the depths of their own despair can feel some, you know, we have vicarious trauma, but some vicarious resilience in the fact of knowing that I was in a very, very, very dark place.
I, I will never say it's the same as anyone else's and I'm here to walk with you to, to normalize that many of us, even if we look amazing on paper, can get to a point where we don't think our life is worth living. We don't know who we are without our titles and to be part of a community that can normalize these discussions I think is so important and and often shame keeps us silenced.
Chrissie: So true and so profound Um, I mean the first thing that you said is like I want to call attention all the way back to performance based culture because we may not have the metacognitive awareness super frequently that we live in a performance based culture, but let's just like pause for a second. Like, yes, we live in a [00:08:00] performance based culture where we are rewarded and receive accolades repeatedly and are selected even for showing traits that align with the, um, capitalist regime, um, and the patriarchal tendencies and, and, and, and, and, right?
So when we do high performance things that are aligned with our authentic selves, voila, chef's kiss, right? But when we are rewarded for the behaviors that actually take us further and further away from our essential selves, our authentic selves, it gets so tricky because we're in a cycle of reward repeat behavior, just like any being with learning capacity would be without the intervention of a higher point of view, right?
So how understandable that all of us get there and that we begin to believe in the lie, I'll be happy when, [00:09:00] because that machine has no end. Right, the machine that, that loosies the football away from Schroeder, right? Is that the one who's kicking the ball in?
Jillian: Yeah. I'm not sure that's the name, but I've got the picture in my head from that cartoon.
Chrissie: Yeah. It's gotta be Charlie. She's gotta be moving the ball from Char Anyway, I got all of my, um. my character is mixed up, but you're moving the goalposts to keep it in the sports field, right? The goalposts are never going to stay still. You are never going to be happy when the happy is in the process, but it's only available if you're not going down a road that leads you to spiritual crisis, existential collapse.
Jillian: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I'm reading a book transforming depression right now. And it really talks about this deep level of despair being, uh, framed such that it is a spiritual crisis. And if you look at it as that, it's like this death of ego self needed to happen in order [00:10:00] for me to reach a higher level of spiritual self. And so I'm at this point in my life where I, I have, you know, it's, it's like mixed in with a lot of, somatic PTSD symptoms. And sometimes I don't always appreciate, uh, the, the impacts of that, but I also feel that allowing myself to heal and like, it's my body is forcing me into self compassion, it's forcing me into stillness is forcing me into the things that my mind is trying to resist and by resisting it, it's like you're adding to your own suffering.
And so if I let go and free myself, like that to me has been the ultimate, you're at this part in your life. You can continue to be exhausted through resisting, or you can just surrender. And I read the book by David Hawkins, um, letting go of the pathway of surrender and like that book, just like, dang, I'm like. And as I was reading it, I just felt myself expand and the weight off of my shoulders. I'm like, that's it. It's kind of like positive reinforcement of like, [00:11:00] here I am trying to shove myself into all these boxes that I know from the past are not aligned with where I want to go, but because they're so familiar, I keep landing back in them. And what would it feel like to let go and surrender? Especially right now, uh, when there's so much going on in the world that it, it might push a lot of us to want to try to control things and, and to go back to things that we're familiar and to be able to let go and surrender, despite the chaos around us, it is, it's an interesting place to be in.
Chrissie: It really is. It is, it requires us holding, um, paradoxical points of view or capacities at the same time.
Jillian: Yeah, that's well said. I'm in marriage and family therapy, as you've mentioned. And there's some therapeutic interventional styles that actually prescribe paradoxical interventions. It's like, if you are highly anxious, if I [00:12:00] prescribe, like go get as anxious as possible, then actually giving you the prescription of just allowing yourself to be as anxious as possible is giving you agency over the anxiety and control over the anxiety, which then can help you reduce your anxiety. Because now you have control over something that's actually stimulated by lack of control or uncertainty over the future.
So it's kind of funny how that works, but I think also, you know, for when I was a surgical resident on my good days, I would talk myself into going back and not quitting, but I was like, no, I need to know that on my worst days I can still show up and this not be detrimental to myself or patients. And you know, that wasn't sustainable for me. So that was ultimately how I decided to leave. And, and so that's where it comes in, like, if we can surrender and let go in these times, we're golden, right? Like, we're golden.
If you can develop these skills in an environment that's pushing you to not, how much, you know, and, [00:13:00] and, and of course, that's not necessarily, that's kind of like, okay, I have to do the hardest thing possible. Maybe that's not the next step for some people, right? Maybe the next step is just acknowledging that now is a really hard time and that. There are aspects that you don't want to let go because it is important to keep ourselves safe. And if you let go of some of those protective factors, you might completely go off the rails. Um, so again, full spectrum of what might be best for each individual.
Chrissie: I'm thinking into the word surrender, surrender, and let go as you said. I think it's probably worthwhile to say in this moment, surrender does not mean give up and roll over, because you can be in full resistance to, um, oh, say, for example, fascism, um, and tyranny, uh, and at the same time be very clear eyed and surrendering to what reality is offering, [00:14:00] um, which is outside of our control, right? So there's, there is the subtle layer of I am not resisting reality, but I am trying to take skillful, intelligent, aligned action that serves the true, the good and the beautiful in whatever way it is that I see that happening.
Jillian: That's such an important distinction. It's similar to when you think about people staying in domestic violence. I think about like that comparison being the letting go of something you can't control because you are controlling what you can versus the learned helplessness. So we're not talking about the learned helplessness and enabling bad behavior. It's that like acknowledging the pain, advocating for what we can and when we reach that point where we realize resisting reality is causing more suffering, it's in those aspects of our life that we let go so that we can show up and advocate for the things that truly matter.
Chrissie: Yes, did we just describe the serenity prayer with a whole lot of words?
Jillian: Mm hmm. Yep. It does [00:15:00] sound exactly like that. Yep
Chrissie: Yeah, and the wisdom to know the difference that is the tricky part sometimes
Jillian: Mm hmm.
Chrissie: Yep. Um So in solving for joy, I sometimes think of this as an equation where the variables we thought were consonants turn out to be variables. And we were talking about this a little bit before we pressed record. Um, tell me and share with our listeners, Jillian, a little bit about the difference between addition and subtraction when it comes to solving for joy for you.
Jillian: Yeah, I think many of us are taught more is better, more is better. Fill that CV, fill that to do list. And just like we are learned in Martha Beck's master coach training a lot of what can improve your life is subtraction Taking away the thoughts that are [00:16:00] getting in the way of the life. You truly want to live taking away the clutter whether that's figurative or literal clutter that's in your living space or in your environment.
And so I really realized, you know, I have, my brother is in finance and he does really well, and I'd always compare myself because our lifestyles are very, very different and I'm single female and my life looks a lot different than I imagined when I was younger and I realized that I like my life. And so I said to my brother who I love very much, I said, I don't know if I should be jealous or not. Right? He's never had student loans. He's doing well financially. He's got a great loving family, beautiful family lives in Colorado. Amazing. Me, uh, had a whole lot of student debt, single ex boyfriend died when I was in, uh, oral surgery. Um, you know, I'm I think I became the scapegoat for the family. We only one that went to therapy and I was like, I've been, you know, I don't know, my brother has his [00:17:00] challenges too. I'm sure we don't just talk, we just don't talk about them, but, but I would just compare because I would feel embarrassed, you know, um, And it's, it's, I'd feel embarrassed if my family were to come to my apartment, which isn't, you know, it's just, it is, there's nothing in here. I don't own much and it's not embarrassing when it's just me cause it aligns. But when you have, you know, when, when I host somebody and they're pointing. This out, like you don't have a couch or a TV or like, what do you do all day? I'm like, I think, I think all day, I just sit here and I think all day long.
Uh, but going back to the, to the comparison with my brother, I said, I don't know if I should be jealous or not and he said, I like your life. It's simple. And when he said that to me, it resonated so deeply with me because when I sat, so for people who don't know, I almost died from anorexia several times, and it was so painful on my deathbed because no one was there and I thought I gave up so much of my life in the sake of achievements, and so I pushed all the people away, so now no one's here. [00:18:00] And if I died today, all the stuff I own at home is a burden to those who have to, like, sell it or discard it. And I said, what was all that for?
And, and so that was in 2016. And because I didn't have a lot of, like, great coping skills, um, the hospital couldn't keep me because I was, uh, I went for eating disorder treatment, my heart rate was too low, they put me in a hospital that didn't have eating disorder care, so both places I went, that I was at in a different state, couldn't keep me for separate reasons. So what did I do? I went back to residency because I had no other concept of what do you do to cope? But that memory, now that I've sat long enough, um, in my current life to be able to like sit with those feelings is just a constant reminder of sure people have a lot more money than me. Sure. People have different family lives than me.
And at the end of the day what will matter most for me. And that is helping me shape, like having this great conversation with you today. Like, how can I connect with the people [00:19:00] I care about? Um, and what gets in the way of that is working all the time, right? Like doing the hardest thing possible, working all the time and it, and the more material goods you think that you need, the more you work in order to. Um, so then I just sat with that. I'm like, you know what, like having a simple life where I can move whenever I want, I can change careers. I don't have a high liability when it comes to financial responsibility. I'm like, that definitely aligns with what I want for myself, I just didn't recognize that it's not what I planned in the past because I was living off of societal rules and expectations for what my life should look like.
Chrissie: Yeah, there aren't a lot of, um, mentors in a life of that kind of simplicity and freedom. There is so much freedom.
Jillian: Yeah, I, I grew up in a Christian household, so this may resonate with people that there's a lot of Christian guilt [00:20:00] put on being a female with no spouse and no children and like, who are you? You're selfish. And, and, uh, I don't subscribe, I don't subscribe to a lot of religious philosophy. So I'm more spiritual minded now, but I do see how a lot of people get guilted and then they get resentful. And if we don't challenge where we learn these lessons and what actually resonates with us, or if we just have so much ingrained guilt from our teachings that we've learned that have been passed down, I feel like it's even taboo to bring this up because I'm like, Oh my God, I'm sinning and I'm going to get cursed to hell if I talk about this, but it's like, that's all guilt, right?
It's like, it's just true for me. It's true for me right now that. There is a lot of pressure that comes from certain religious sectors that have a vision for what it means to be a family. And I've chosen to unsubscribe to those beliefs because they got in the way of my values. Uh, and, and I truly believe that the God that I follow wouldn't create [00:21:00] obstacles to being able to, uh, love and serve in a way that feels aligned with my heart and soul.
Chrissie: Well said. Yeah. I'm glad that you have found your way and, uh, yeah, I feel definitely those cultural messages exist in, in different, you know, subsets of our over culture. Um, and when we practice living our own truth, I can barely even hear them anymore. I don't even know. But what they're talking about, it's a certain kind of confusion when you think everybody must adapt and acclimate and conform to a certain vision, it is a harmful vision, and it is what helped some societies form and stay safe in the past, [00:22:00] but it's, it's probably not what is most needed today, which is more people connected to their deeper selves, their deeper vision, and how to be of service in this crazy world.
Jillian: Yeah. There's a lot of philosophies like Martha Beck's that exist about congruent communication and being congruent with oneself. And the self is like includes many different parts of self, kind of like IFS is like parts of self. And, uh, there's one person that she passed away in 1988 and her name was Virginia Satir and she has got philosophies that align. If people don't know Martha Beck, I'll share a little bit more about. Uh, what I mean by that is that Virginia Satir, I learned about her work in my marriage and family therapy program. And her therapeutic approach was really based on getting people to, to really be their authentic self and to live in systems where that was honored and supported.
So I think about, for me, it was not, [00:23:00] it was not appreciated and it was not, uh, really nurtured to be my emotional, sensitive self. And to ask for what I needed. And so I people pleased, which means that I was abandoning parts of myself in order to be safe in a system. And then I was the problem when I developed anorexia and I, I really believed that I was the problem and in Virginia Satir's work looks at the whole system and never pathologizes an individual in that system. It's the impact of the system. And I was the person showing the symptoms of a dysfunction in the system that needed to be, uh. To, to be looked at and, and her philosophy is that there were some incongruencies in communication and the way that people were living.
So what it would look like to be congruent with oneself is to be authentic and true to who you are. Um, and congruent communication is respecting yourself authentically, respecting the other [00:24:00] people authentically and in the context of the interactions. Uh, and so I think about how many of us don't do that. So some of the things that would be out of alignment are the people pleasing, and she would call them survival stances. That would be like the placater or blaming. You're saying, I'm not the problem. You are, or being like somebody who's super reasonable. And they're, um, they're kind of just not looking at the whole scene from like a holistic lens, like removing emotions out of it, which a lot of us do. Right? And just like looking at things from a way that really, uh, removes the human, which we, we see that a lot in medicine, right? Like, I'm just going to think about this logically and I'm going to remove my human self, which actually, um, adds trauma. And then some of them just get apologetic and, yeah, hyper logical, exactly.
Yeah. And then the other part is like, I just get apathetic and don't care about anything because it's all a mess. Um, and so that would be all incongruent communication because there's something that [00:25:00] was lost in there, whether it's part of yourself, part of the other person, or lost context.
Chrissie: What it's bringing up for me is like, there's a loss of, uh, presence in the interaction. Like you lose contact with your own fullness in those incongruent situations. Yeah, and,
Jillian: and some of us.
Chrissie: And all of those places where you split off from yourself leaves, like, less and less presence available in the present moment.
Jillian: Yep. And if we think about, like, if that happened really young, and then people get to adulthood, and we ask them, like, oh, get back to your essential self. Like, who were you? They may not have ever connected with the self. And so if those people really need developmental, you know, healing from developmental trauma, because if they, they lost themselves so early, like it's really about getting it, getting connected to yourself for the first [00:26:00] time. Um, if you're healing from it in later life.
Chrissie: Yeah. First time in a reachable memory. I love thinking about you as Silly Jilly, outside, curious, a part of all things. Um, have you, um, spent time with Positive Intelligence, uh, by Shirzad Shamim also? Mm hmm. Yep. That's wonderful. Um, the hyperlogical, uh, reminded me of the, the hyperlogical saboteur, which is such a common one in medicine, and the antidote to hyperlogical is, of course, not to become illogical and irrational. It's to access our you know, inherent sage wisdom, which is another way to deeply presence ourselves with our more authentic, essential fuller self. Goals.
Jillian: I think a lot of us are afraid to [00:27:00] connect with parts of ourself. And, and I think, uh, A lot of work that is non pathologizing like internal family systems and self compassion, like for the parts of ourself that we don't love, to understand the role they have and understand our relationship with them. Um, I think about it for anorexia and addictions or some stigmatized aspects of ourself that people can start to develop a shame response towards, like, I'm ashamed of this part of myself and that for it makes them criticize that part of themselves, judge that part of themselves, isolate more.
And what uh, internal family systems is finding is like those parts of ourselves have a role. They're protecting us from this deeper wound. So if we can give love to this protector, that's trying to keep us safe from some other pain that's underneath, um, then we can honor it. It's not there [00:28:00] to be a negative thing. It's not there, uh, to say that you are weak. It just has a role in identifying what that role is. Uh, I think about that a lot when it comes to the way the things have been modified for me, as I consider the role of anorexia in my life and how much it has caused me pain and, and some people and some treatment centers will, like, want you to see it as a bully and try to cast it out.
And what, um, Dick Schwartz found is, like, he did that with people, with a client that was, uh, had bulimia. And he realized it was not making her any better. And then he supported her in developing a self compassion communication with that part of herself. And that ultimately led to greater healing. And so I think a lot of the times, the things that we are taught in how to respond to parts of ourself or to circumstances with like increased self criticism. And a lot of the hypervigilance that we get over grades and perfectionism [00:29:00] aren't only adding fuel to the fire and driving us further away from our essential self.
Chrissie: What is a way that you practice, um, staying connected to your essential self? Do you have a, a regular contemplative practice that you do to stay grounded with that?
Jillian: I think usually I notice when I'm in a defensive stance or something that's incongruent and I'm like, Oh, there it is. Awareness and the self compassion response. And Kristen Neff always says like the self compassion comes out during moments of suffering. And so it's just that awareness of, Oh, there it is again. Like airs that know it all self that's coming out. That's really annoying. Isn't it? Or focusing on perfection, you know, back in grad school. Hell yeah. I want to get a hundred percent, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, well, why? And what would happen to you if you got, you know, what happens? It's really hard to just detach from that. Um.
When I, when I have a lot of pain in my heart, you know, I'm [00:30:00] grieving a lot as I look at my developmental years through a new lens and, um, and accept the relationship that I have now isn't necessarily one that I would have wanted for myself, um, when it comes to my family of origin and, and, and I realized that in order to stay true to me relationships with people had to look different than what my heart yearned for. And, um, there's a lot of grief when it comes to acknowledging those things.
So, so for the people that are, you know, seeking to find their authentic self, I kind of want to prepare them that some of the grief of letting go of those parts of yourself that aren't actually aligned is to be expected and also, um, Kristen Neff talks a lot about backdraft, like as you're leaning into these new practices such as self compassion, it could actually feel worse before it gets better. Um, and so I'm just really observing all of those emotions that [00:31:00] arise and trying to understand where they're coming from and how they might drive me away from my authentic self versus how they're helping me come back in line.
Chrissie: Yeah. And how understandable, um, it would be to people these for survival or acceptance for the rewards of living in human society.
Jillian: And again, it's just acknowledging the role that that has, and, and, and I think also when we feel pain, all of that anger can come up and that blaming can come up. And I think it's important to honor the emotions. And also when it comes to looking back on the past and wishing things could be different, I still respect all the privileges and all the things that went well. And, and to know that our parents are humans. And they aren't, they weren't given everything that they needed. And to give them what I think maybe I can support them with [00:32:00] now as somebody that's almost 37, I've accepted my role is different. Um, and I can put forth the effort that I want on. Cultivating a relationship that I'd like now. And if that's not met with the same desire, then I can learn to accept it. And, and that honors the difference in life cycle, like where we're actually at and, and, and though I can feel the pain of what I didn't get when I'm younger, I can now see a parent as a child who also didn't get that when they were younger and so how can we heal together
Chrissie: wonderful when that can happen. When you are surprised by a wave of joy, when joy stumbles upon you and surprises you, what is that like and what is the thing that brings that for you?
Jillian: What comes to mind is when somebody opens a door for someone or does something [00:33:00] unexpected like a stranger or like you say a compliment or someone compliments you or anyone, if anyone says anything about my dog that's positive. It's, it's a quick way to joy to my heart, um, but it's those small things, right? Because we can get swept away by all the negativity and to just see the common humanity or, you know, I watch, if I'm watching something that really brings me joy, it's seeing strangers go out of their way to help someone and to save their life as someone.
You know, I mentioned I dealt with suicidality when I see someone saving someone's life and think that their life is so important, it really reminds me that life is very precious and valuable and there are moments of suffering that make that feel untrue. Um, but to see how much I wanted that person to live, it reminds me of like, Oh yeah, like, these dark feelings I have are painful and I do value life and honoring that we can live it to the fullest. So it's really that [00:34:00] connection with people and not necessarily people who are feeling happy, right? Not necessarily people who are feeling positive, what we would associate with positive emotions though.
Um, sometimes just viewing them as like uncomfortable and comfortable or pleasant, unpleasant, uh, high energy, low energy might be better than labeling them positive, negative. They're good, bad. Um, they just are. Yeah. And, and so like, um, I think knowing that we can really show up for people at all levels of their human experience and connect, um, and they can just be, and to honor what we're saying is they can just be exactly who they are, where they are at life. Like that really brings me a lot of deep, profound joy.
Chrissie: Beautiful. I can really relate to, um, resonating with small acts of kindness. That, um, just feel like [00:35:00] reassuring humans being kind to other humans or animals. That's reassuring.
Jillian: I think even, so there was a guy that rides his bike and he blasts his music loud and you can see how it makes everyone little dance. So when you invited me to dance with you earlier, it was like, it's kind of funny. It's just small things that just really allow us to relax and let loose without judgment. If we think back to like middle school, if people had school dances and how many of us just will want to stay on the wall because we don't want to look goofy, but who looks goofiest is the people who aren't dancing, right? Often, I think.
So I would observe that and just let myself, get like, just let loose and go out and dance because I'm like, it actually, I perceive it looks a little bit more awkward to just be standing, which I don't judge because that was also often me, um, but just allowing ourselves to let loose and not take ourselves so seriously.
Chrissie: Yeah, you know, people standing on the wall, um, might be there because they legitimately do not like to move their [00:36:00] bodies to music, or they come from a religious background that says it's sinful, or they really just are trying to stay safe socially and not risk ridicule and rejection, which is usually what they're trying to do, right? Because, I mean, listen to this. We want to move our bodies to music sometimes. And who's having more fun? Like, who's getting more delight? I love having fun in my body.
Um, I've said this before probably even on the podcast, but there's this app called Body Groove. And it's like a workout of the day, a dance workout of the day. And I'm not so regular that I do it on a daily basis. But every time I do it, I just am like, why don't I do this every day? It's such an effective joy practice to just move your body to music in a non judgmental way. It's like mindfulness plus movement.
Jillian: Yeah. And I even think like when it comes to ableism, I anticipate some [00:37:00] people, um, need to adapt to, to what they're able to do. But what you said about even, you know, conversations I've had on my own channel about allowing ourselves to feel pleasure in certain ways, the word pleasure to me is so tied into sin in my mind from the, from how I grew up and how it was worded that it's, It's been something I've really been sitting with and contemplating because I'm like, wow, that's like a really deeply rooted word for me.
And, and yes, you can dance, but you can only dance to these songs. You can only dance in this way and it needs to be wearing this outfit and you need to be this far apart from people. And you know, it's, it is interesting because I highly respect it. I'm grateful that you brought up the multiple. Reasons and, and potentially a lot more reasons why people would choose to sit out, not go to the dances and how painful it can be, uh, in those socially, uh, very awkward periods of time of like, not being asked to go to the dance or not feeling like you fit into the dance or like all those things, but reclaiming that I think, uh, in, in our adult life and making it really [00:38:00] fit.
What we want to do. And I think that was part, like I used to on Instagram dance, like super crazy. And I think that was the reclaiming of like, you know, all the times I went to dances and I just couldn't stand them. I couldn't, I had so much, there's too much pressure. I just couldn't stand them. Um, so reclaiming it in a way that's like, you're so interesting on, uh, so. I, on my Instagram, when I was dancing, really just like let it let loose. I've even looked back at it now. I'm like, I don't know how I did that, but where it stopped was that I had a cardiologist from my institution, encourage people to follow me because he thought it was fun, but then I thought more people are watching. So I, it like shut me down and I stopped.
Chrissie: Then you got in your head about it. That's too bad. That's too bad. Maybe you can, maybe you'll revisit it someday.
Jillian: Yeah, it will come out organically if I do.
Chrissie: I love that you, um, named the ableist part, and I [00:39:00] will say this is not intended to be a plug for Body Groove, but hey, if I get a link, I'll share it in the show notes, guys. There are bodies of all shapes and sizes, ages, and abilities in those videos. So there are people who are dancing seated, um, people who are dancing full out, people who are doing modifications. And it's not proscriptive. I mean, they might say, get low, you know, and, you know, do this. But it's really like, it's just very freeform. It's very, very body positive and movement positive. Um, and it's, it is a practice to get that vulnerable with your body and space. Yeah, you don't have to video yourself. You could just do it in private.
Jillian: Yeah, yeah, I think with body dysmorphia, being on video is very interesting. I just, I look back on that time and I'm like, that was a very interesting period of time because I had gone through a lot of, uh, body changes because I was very medically compromised from my eating disorder in [00:40:00] 2021. So, like, people didn't meet me then. They met me the year later. So, uh, it was very, uh, challenging in my head for people to have met me when I looked fine, they didn't know me and not that anorexia suffering is correlated with weight, but it was just a big sharp contrast to my capacity to function in my body. That being on social media, um, it was really challenging for me, but I got on it in order to promote a conference for women physicians.
That was initially how I even got on Instagram. And I realized the best way that I can really challenge my body dysmorphia and discomfort for myself, this won't be, For everybody, but where I was at was like, I'm going to just going to keep showing up awkward. I had like braces at the time and just was really uncomfortable in my body, but I'm like, I'm just going to keep showing up. And then as I like edited all of my videos and stuff, I just develop more and more self compassion for myself at every stage of, of my journey. Um, But it's interesting because during harder times if I look back on those videos that self credit [00:41:00] comes out and I can feel where I've where I you know where I would have isolated and where maybe I've regressed in some areas that I had previously really Taken hold of.
And I think that's to be expected when it comes to recovering from things is it's not all linear path. And to even give myself compassion for being like, Oh, see, you used to be that and now look at you again, you're back in this hole. What got it's like, okay, I'm curious. I'm curious as to what, what's going on for me now? And maybe it's just a time I need to be less visible as I lean into some deeper levels of healing that require me to be more vulnerable, um, and, and often too vulnerable to be re traumatized in, in these moments.
Chrissie: Yeah, it's wise to, um, to be discerning in those moments and figure out what is it that I need now? What do I need now? I do not need to do what I did yesterday, because today's me doesn't need the same exact healing as yesterday's me. [00:42:00] Maybe it's a deeper spiral. Um, and you'll have the intuition, the resources external to know when is it time to d dive into the right amount of discomfort to stretch and when is it time to, you know, contract in and do a little wintering to, to let things integrate and solidify. Consolidate.
Jillian: Yeah, I think that's important. 'cause a lot of people, when they see other people being vulnerable, they're like, oh, I, I need to go be vulnerable. And, and sometimes people can push themselves out when they're, uh. In a, in a really sensitive place that I, I support people in doing a little more private healing. And, and when it comes to authenticity, we, I think sometimes we're afraid, well, if I'm not telling people everything, I'm not being authentic. And that's not true. Like a lot of times the things that require us to really nurture our own healing and private are, we don't owe [00:43:00] people, uh, our whole life story. It's like being able to be in a place where you think you're ready to share things and it can add value or it helps you to share it. Like that's important for me to mention. Um, because I, I do think sometimes people are inspired to be more vulnerable and, and I certainly don't want to push them or ignite something that pushes them uh, too fast because that can, can lead to a lot more pain sometimes.
Chrissie: Absolutely. I heard something, um, from an author once about, you know, it's skillful to share our scars, but not necessarily our wounds that are still actively healing. If we're sharing from a teaching or writing, exploring standpoint, it's time for them to be integrated.
Jillian: Yeah, I think that's a great metaphor.
Chrissie: Um, if I were to ask you to share two fun facts that are not on your bio [00:44:00] that people wouldn't necessarily know by reading about you online, what would you tell us?
Jillian: Well, now that you know that my nickname was Silly Jilly, so that's fun. I used to be, I used to get in trouble in elementary school all the time because I would do a lot of things that were really funny. Um, I thought they were funny. They may not be funny to everyone, but I used to get in trouble all the time for like laughing too hard or telling a joke cause I couldn't pay attention in class. Um, so silly, jilly.
And, and one thing that I'm proud of is I played Charlie and Charlie in the chocolate factory when I was in the fifth grade, as I've always kind of had a, this desire, I think, to, I wanted to be a famous actress, but not really famous because I didn't want to be in the limelight of everyone's judgment. But I thought it'd be really cool to be in a movie. So I used to act a lot and that was one of my most favorite roles, Charlie bucket.
Chrissie: That's [00:45:00] really fun. Yeah. That is super fun.
Jillian: How about you? Can I ask you that question as you host your own channel? Yeah, sure.
Chrissie: Um, catch me off guard. I'm going to share that I once jumped out of a perfectly good airplane. Um, it was, it was my bachelorette event, um, before I got married, um, at age 23, my first marriage. And it was amazing. And it was very existential. It was literally like, well, here we go, I might die. Um, but it's the cost of admission if you want the thrill, you actually have to throw your life out the window of this otherwise perfectly good airplane. And it was tandem and, and I didn't have to like pull the ripcord, but it was like nothing I've ever experienced before or since, because I only did it one time. Um, but it was pretty, pretty amazing. I [00:46:00] still have the video of it somewhere.
Jillian: What's the second one?
Chrissie: Um, the second one is that, um, last year we started a tradition at my child's school of hosting an adult prom. I think that goes with our dance, uh, our dance theme. So all of these, you know, middle aged parents of children at her school came together. We hired a DJ. We did a balloon arch. Um, it was so much fun. And people danced their faces off, including one person in a full on prom dress with her husband doing the worm.
Jillian: Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. I love it so much. Thank you for sharing that.
Chrissie: That's a pretty delightful visual.
Jillian: Mm hmm. That's awesome. You have way more guts than I do. I don't know if I can jump out of the airplane, but you survived and I'm glad that you survived. You survived both the airplane and the prom. Yes. [00:47:00] I did. Gladly. Oh gosh. Both very, very risky things.
Chrissie: Yes. Depending on your perspective. One might be terrifying and the other might be totally fine to some people and it might not be the one you expect.
Jillian: Yep. Yeah,
Chrissie: yes, it was a, um, it was a silent auction item and they had somebody ask me, is it okay if we pay to not come?
Jillian: That's hilarious.
Chrissie: I would pay to not come to prom, like, okay, I see you.
Jillian: That is awesome. Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, it can bring up a lot for people.
Chrissie: Yeah, totally. Adolescence. Jillian, thank you so much for being here, having this conversation, for doing the work you do in the world. People will want to find you. If they are searching on YouTube and Instagram, tell listeners where they will find your stuff and also how to work with you as a coach.
Jillian: Well, they can find me, thank you, on A Life True to You. Hopefully we'll get your face on there so they can watch your episode at some point. [00:48:00] And they can find me and my dog and some of the clips from YouTube on Instagram. I think it's Jillian and Race. There's some underscores in there. Jillian underscore and underscore Race, who is my dog.
Chrissie: Life partner.
Jillian: Yeah. Life partner for sure. And I'm on social media everywhere. So if they want to connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook, they can certainly connect with me and let me know who they are and, and what brings them joy so we can chat about it.
Chrissie: Well, this definitely brought me joy today, Jillian. Thank you so much for being here and I will talk to you soon.
Jillian: Yeah. Thank you so much, Christy. I love what you're doing and I appreciate this time with you.
Chrissie: Dr. Jillian Riggert, everyone. What a gift she gave us today, sharing her story with such honesty and heart. The way she unraveled a life that no longer fit, the courage it took to step into the unknown. That's the kind of bravery that [00:49:00] invites all of us to take a deeper look at our own stories. Let this be your reminder. You are not your titles. You are not just what you produce. You are worthy of joy, just as you are.
And next week, we're going to take that conversation even further with my friend, Iris Fernandez Valdes, a coach abolitionist and activist of love, light, and radical compassion. Iris is here to challenge the way we think about balance. Not as something static, but as something alive, responsive, and deeply human. We talk about what it means to move through the world in alignment with who you really are. Why coaching is more than just personal growth. It's a tool for collective liberation and how giving ourselves permission to take up space can change absolutely everything. If you've ever questioned where you [00:50:00] truly belong, this conversation is for you.
And for my physician coaching friends, a little gift. The first 20 registrants for the Physician Coaching Summit are going to receive a bonus. If you guys have been on the fence about joining or registering for the summit, I want you to know you are going to get professional headshots taken at Savannah, capturing you in your best light, authentic, vibrant, and fully you. We hope this is a real gift, a way to see your own self reflected with the same warmth, joy, and brilliance that I know you bring to the world. So physician coaches join us November 6th through eighth at Savannah for three days of breathing, connecting, and reimagining what's possible in medicine. Tickets are on sale now at the physician coaching summit.com.
And if this conversation lits something up in you and you're ready to start choosing yourself, I would love to support you. The joy reset is a four session coaching [00:51:00] package designed to help you clear the noise, reconnect with yourself, your deep creative wisdom, and move forward with more clarity, confidence, and joy. You can find out more at joypointsolutions. com.
Deep gratitude as always to my incredible team, producer, Kelsey Vaughn, post production by Alyssa Wilkes, operations by Denise Crane, theme music by Dennis  Kyshchuk, cover photography by Shelby Brakken. And as always special shout out to my sweet wife, Sue, my number one fan and champion. Thanks for tuning in, my friends. Keep choosing yourself. Keep breaking the rules that were never meant for you. And may we all keep solving for joy. I will see you next time.
