Sharon: You can have guilt, but shame is really destructive for us. Humility is maybe a quote unquote normal reaction and imposter syndrome is kind of the synchronous with the guilt to shame.
Chrissie: We cannot do our work well, and we cannot stay in the high pressure jobs that we embody without being regarded as human beings and having the volume and complexity of our work acknowledged and deeply considered beyond profit and loss statements.
Sharon: our morbidity and mortality is very vindictive, It's not a place where we're really looking at what went wrong and how do we do better in many cases. It's not used as a growth opportunity. And there's this idea that, and this is where imposter syndrome really comes in, is that I am supposed to be perfect or pretty close to perfect.
Chrissie: You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the solving for joy podcast. I am delighted to introduce you to my dear friend, Dr. Sharon Stein. Uh, Sharon is a colorectal surgeon, the surgeon's surgeon, actually, um, a leader in the operating room, a trailblazer in academia, and a relentless advocate for patients. She has performed over 10, 000 surgeries, published over 150 articles and peer reviewed journals, and is an adjunct professor of surgery at Case Western Reserve. She has delivered hundreds of talks on local, national, international stages. And if that were not enough already, she is a board examiner and a key leader in surgical education. Uh, past president of the Association of Women surgeons committee chair for the American College of Surgeons and a leader in the world of the American Society of Colorectal Surgeons.
All of this, and there's more, Dr. Stein is trained as a coach and leader with certifications from the Weatherhead School of Business at Case Western Reserve and the Kellogg School of Business at Northwestern. Uh, she has guided over 150 programs worldwide as course director, moderator, and faculty member. And I know that our conversation today, as always, will be packed with inspiration, insight, and wisdom from this accomplished lady who is my friend and colleague. Let's dive in. Welcome Sharon.
Sharon: Well, thank you so much. I am delighted and honored to be here with you. It is just really fun to get to hang out with you for the next little bit.
Chrissie: Me too. Me too. I'm so excited. So before we get going too much, I'm going to share with our audience who's listening today that we, we just got to meet in November at the physician coaching summit. And, um, it was love at first sight really, but also Sharon gave a talk, um, about why physicians are especially challenging sometimes to coach, or it's challenging for them to receive coaching at times. And, without, you know, unwrapping too much of the package, it was really about the brainwashing or the undercover, the hidden curriculum of joining this, this group, that we are in medical professionals. And it was during that talk, you guys, that the idea, the concept of Roar really came to life. So I, um, I share that origin story with a bow of, uh, appreciation and gratitude to Sharon for the inspiration that kind of ripened my, um, my vision and changed it from another iteration of leadership and vision development into, uh, Roar, which just has a little bit more intentional spirit and joyous rebellion in it. So, so excited to have you Sharon.
Sharon: Well, I would just want to, um, amplify that a little bit and say that you kind of coming up at the end of that talk and talking about, Oh my gosh, I just had my inspiration. is one of the biggest compliments I've ever gotten in my life, and it's really meaningful. And to be able to just like maybe plant some seeds in different, really amazing people as yourself. Um, it is just an honor.
Chrissie: It is a deep honor. And I also want to reflect on what makes that connection and inspiration possible because I was fed and nourished by your source material and then the moment of sharing back to you what what that sparked for me is kind of like bringing it to its full fruition, it's actually bringing it back to the, the person that shared the source material like thank you for the inspiration This is what's growing inside of me because of your words and then you get nourished You Yeah, and not have this question mark of like, I wonder how my talk landed, you know, and we're left to our own little, you know, critic, inner critic voices.
Sharon: 100%. And instead of that, I mean, speaking to the topic of your, uh, of your podcast is your amplifying joy, right? Like you got some joy out of that and you gave me joy out of that. And other people who were both watching our excitement probably got some joy out of that. So it just kind of, it allows it. And it's amazing how those things spiral in both positive and when we have negative emotions, negative ways as well.
Chrissie: Absolutely. And I want to say too, like it's, um, it was, it takes humility to actually give honor and gratitude, when you receive inspiration, to acknowledge your co creative role is not a individualistic journey, but it is always being informed by the air we breathe and the particles within it that someone else has actually breathed out.
Sharon: Yes, and I also, like, I love Synergy. Someone was talking to me the other day about the idea of being a speaker versus being a moderator. And if you ask me, I would always prefer to be a moderator, because I love amplifying and pulling things out of other people. I think of myself as a much better editor than I am a primary author, if that makes sense.
Chrissie: Interesting.
Sharon: And so for me, like having a guest on my podcast or being here with you is so much sweeter than going off and doing something on my own because it's just, well, one, I get to share the entire experience. I don't have to be, you know, it's like having a sleepover, like we are 10 again and like, Hey Chrissie do you want to come hang out with me for the day? It'll be so fun.
Chrissie: Yes. Collaboration makes the whole thing so much sweeter. Really does. For me. A hundred percent. You know, I learned about something called spark types, um, a few years ago, and it's just one of these tools, you know, you take a questionnaire and it tells you what your spark type is. And it's really kind of like, do you, are you a person that does better with a blank page? Are you a person that thinks in systems? Are you somebody that needs a prompt and then their creative juices get flowing? So I am I'm often like you, I do really well with a prompt. I get intimidated by a blank page, but having something to respond to, I'm off to the races.
Sharon: Yeah, no, I'm with you. And reading someone, I've written a lot of papers and reading someone else's work, even if it was a collaboration in creating the work, you know, I worked with a lot of, you know, Residents and a lot of fellows who were doing research. So we would talk about the idea and then we'd send, send whoever that was back, you know, and they'd come back with a written thing and I can edit and change and do all of that. But starting, okay, oh my goodness, how do I write this introduction? That was always just painful for me.
Chrissie: I mean, it's one of the really generous gifts that AI is offering us is like we can give some things and then they get strung together, but then we have to also deconstruct and reanimate them with human spirit, or else we're left with just kind of the, the Undead words of AI.
Sharon: Well, as long as we use it as a, as a building block, right? Implement. Yeah. It's a tool for us to use, but you don't send a hammer out by itself to go build a house. You know, come on, come on up. Like we're not in like some strange Disney cartoon with, you know, the pals go off by themselves and they get the water, right? Yeah. Um, AI needs to be a part of what we use and a tool that we can build with and build different things and maybe change the way we can build, but it's not its own thing.
Chrissie: Agreed. Um, so your practice is called the intentional surgeon. Yes. Um, so I'm excited to hear about intention, intention in surgery and how you're dancing with that and solving for joy right now.
Sharon: Yeah. So, um, I will start with the idea that when I was thinking about how to help surgeons and I really only coach surgeons and most of my work is about changing culture and surgery, and hopefully that'll have effects on medicine more broadly, but that's really kind of my passion space, at least at the moment, right? I'm a, I'm a change agent, so that could always change down the road. But the thing that I thought was so important was that there's this moment between the stimulus that you get and you can either react or you can take just a little bit more time and respond to your stimulus and that difference between reaction and response is intention. Like that is the moment where you say, gosh, how important is it for me to have X or Y reaction? Like, what do I want to get out of this interaction? What do I want to do with this information? Um, how much emotion do I want to share with somebody? All of those types of questions you get to have at that moment.
And for me, you know, I think about surgeons and in the operating room, for instance, you have bleeding and you need to react. You just need to take care of that bleeding right away. And I think to a certain extent we're a little bit different than medically based doctors. Where medically based doctors do a lot more thinking before they respond, kind of as part of their training. And I think in general, surgeons are trained to react to things. You have a trauma, you walk into the trauma bay, ABCs, let's go. We're not, we're not going to be thinking about what we need to do. This is our direction. And I think part of our joy as surgeons and our ability to be joyful and everything that's going on in healthcare, everything that's going on in this world as people, as surgeons, as physicians has to do with the fact that surgeons so often react rather than choosing how they want to respond.
Chrissie: Yes. Will you share a little bit with the listeners about, um, you know, our, our reputation as, um, I will say our, but I'm not a surgeon, but the reputation of surgeons, um, in medicine, it may not be super common knowledge. So we'll just pretend like it's not and say, okay, what is, what do people think in medicine when they think about the archetype of surgeon?
Sharon: Oh, well, you've heard of God, right? Um, I kind of ingest, but the surgeon is supposed to be strong, reactive, right all the time, all knowing, um, all doing right. Like we're not supposed to have complications. We're not supposed to have things go wrong. Um, we are supposed to literally, you get to go to sleep and I get to do something to your body and make you all better almost magically.
Chrissie: And the, um, the bargain for that is, is kind of implicitly, and I'm supposed to know everything and keep you safe and create the desired outcome.
Sharon: Yeah.
Chrissie: It's a lot of pressure.
Sharon: And what's interesting to some extent is that because surgery is such a black box to like the average person. I mean, now we do have videos and there is more access to kind of what happens during a surgery, but because it's a black box, like my patients for, I'm a colon and rectal surgeon, right? So I do a lot of surgery for things like colon cancer and diverticular disease and Crohn's disease type of like big surgeries where people do go to sleep. Um,
Chrissie: Remove bowel, reconnect bowel, like, it's a dirty field, it's a lot.
Sharon: But you go to sleep, and there needs to be so much trust in your surgeon, that they're going to just take care of you in the way you would want. I actually, I'm going to tell you a story that is one of like, I think, most, The evidence of the hubris of a surgeon is that someone I trained with did these really, really big surgeries and would bring his patients into the hospital, um, the night before and the patient one day we were rounding before, um, patient will have surgery the next day and said, doctor, what's the worst thing that could happen to me tomorrow? And the doctor literally said, the worst thing that could happen to you tomorrow is that I die tonight. Because it's, it's truly this calm. And this is like, so you can talk about the God complex, but these are the things that in training, the way we've been raised within our surgical environment is that we're supposed to have that much confidence in ourselves and our abilities that we can do anything like it's, it's a, it's a little preposterous. It's, it's the completely the caricature of, of a surgeon.
Chrissie: Yes. And how did you make the turn from being a woman surgeon in a very male dominated field with this kind of, um, energetic signature to bringing, uh, intentionality and coaching to this space? I know that it's a long and, and turny story, but what part of it would you share with us today?
Sharon: So the first thing I would say is that I think, and I don't know if this is generational. I don't know if it's gendered. I don't know if it's just personality based, but there's some thought that the whole idea of imposter syndrome, and I'm sure at some point you've talked about imposter syndrome. I've listened to some of your podcasts, but not everyone, but imposter syndrome is kind of the idea that I'm not good enough. Everybody else can do this, but I can't do this. And there's a thought, um, that the imposter syndrome is actually humility, right?
So it's actually very normal that we be humble and think maybe I can't do everything perfectly, right? Like that's a normal human thought. And within surgery, it's kind of antithetical to what we're supposed to be thinking, right? Because I'm supposed to be like that surgeon I just told you about where worst thing that happens to you tomorrow is that I die tonight. And so when you have imposter syndrome, which I think women tend to have more than men. I think younger generations. tend to have at least more evidence than older generations. Um, you start to wonder like, am I really good enough? And I, can I really do this? Because I'm, I'm not perfect. I don't see myself as perfect. And so you start to look at ways within surgery that you can make things work.
It's evidenced like not only in the clinical practice, cause like my clinical practice always went really well, I will say like that wasn't a problem. But when I got into, I saw potential in myself as a leader. And I think other people didn't see it the same way that I believed it to be there. And that's where my imposter syndrome kind of snuck in was more about the things within surgical, um, leadership that I could do. I started going, gosh, what can I change here? Because I can't necessarily, I can't walk in and say, okay, y'all think differently now. But I can figure out different ways that I can interact with the world. And that's intentionality, right? Like that's about being intentional. And that got me to professional development initially. It got me into coaching from there. And it got me into a lot of thought work that has brought me to this idea of intentionality.
And that idea that not only as a surgeon, can I, you know, take that moment to think in most cases, right? Not when someone's bleeding, not maybe when the trauma highest level trauma, I need to know my ABCs and just react. But there are a lot of situations where taking those couple seconds, couple minutes, couple hours, couple days actually allows us to make better decisions. And I think particularly in surgical leadership, Um, that was critical to me, both having success and also figuring out that this was something that's needed within the culture of surgery.
Chrissie: I love the, um, idea that you brought attention to the tension between humility and imposter syndrome. I wonder if, you know, the, the difference between humility and imposter syndrome is like how one contributes to a negative self concept or diminishing of self and one is just sort of a grounding aspect of a healthy ego.
Sharon: I wonder how much of that is just cultural. That if you're allowed to be less than perfect, and you're allowed to admit your flaws and your, your failures and things you can learn and grow ways you can grow, then it becomes humility. And if the culture tells you that you shouldn't be doing those things, because that same culture of I know everything in the operating room, permeates it. surgical culture outside of the operating room. And so I'm not supposed to, like, I just should learn and know how to communicate with everyone perfectly without any sort of training or any sort of practice. And it should just be my reaction is to communicate with everyone.
Chrissie: Right. Because there's actually shame in not knowing.
Sharon: 100%. And shame, you know, just like the difference between you can have guilt, but shame is really destructive for us. Humility is maybe a quote unquote normal reaction and imposter syndrome is kind of the synchronous with the guilt to shame.
Chrissie: Yeah, I'm seeing it right now in my brain is like being comfortable in the shades of gray instead of having very rigid black and white thinking like this is okay. This is not okay. This is right. This is wrong. And especially when one filters it through their surgeon identity, which given the years and years and hours and hours and hours that you devote to, um, Um, Attaining a surgeon identity, it is not something that you relinquish lightly. It's not something that you unlearn lightly or even become open to the possibility of unlearning lightly. It is actually perceived many times as an absolute threat to ego survival.
Sharon: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it is also causing a huge amount of distress. One of the things we're hearing about and not just surgical circles, I think this is happening in medicine as well, but I think the predominance of it in surgical circles is in this day and age, there's kind of this, you know, like this culture of once you've done something wrong, whether that's a, had some complications. Um, how to become a personality problem. Rather than, gosh, what do we need to give this person so that we can write them and help them with their growth, whether that's growth because of clinical skills, technical skills, or communication and professional development skills, those quote unquote, I hate soft skills, but we can, we can change all of those things, right?
We don't stop learning when we get out of residency. And if someone has clinical problems, oftentimes in this counterculture, you're just cancelled, right? Like you're, they, they're kicked out of institutions. And I'm seeing that so much in surgery right now where people, Who need the opportunity for growth and the skills, they, you know, tools, they need those tools to be able to grow instead of being given those tools. We're supposed to be mentors, particularly in academic surgery, right? We're supposed to help them out through those places. And instead it's, you know what? You got two strikes. Maybe you got three strikes. You're out. You're done. Yeah, you're canceled.
Chrissie: I'm feeling the irony to of, you know, in medicine and in surgery, we are imbued with the belief that we are lifelong learners. That's part of our commitment to our craft and our art, right? Lifelong learners, we accept that, we swallow it hook line and sinker.
However, um, If we are told there's something we don't know that maybe we have a should, that we should have learned some other time, that's like remediation, which is not easy to be open to. It's more like in surgery and in, um, well, in many fields where there's a, a lot of evidence being created all the time, a lot of research, you know, bench research and clinical research alike, um, that the lifelong learning is partly about creating learning opportunities for others and learning as an advancing the field, uh, versus personal development or development of even our, our technique. I would say, even as a surgeon, there aren't that many surgeons I know that have performance coaches, but the tool go on days article years ago about hiring a performance coach is so impactful. Um, and I, my brain kind of exploded because it was almost exactly that time as a primary care doctor, I hired what I would now call a performance coach. I hired a mentor to come sit with me for a week, observe me in, Patient interactions and talk to me about my practice of medicine.
Sharon: That's awesome I I love that you did that and I what I would say is that and I'm not sure if it's the same in all fields but like our morbidity and mortality is very vindictive, oftentimes. It's very used against us. It's yeah, it's not a place where it's where we're really looking at what went wrong and how do we do better in many cases. And it's not used as a growth opportunity. And there's this perfectionism, right? Like, there's this idea that, and this is where imposter syndrome really comes in, is that I am supposed to be perfect or pretty close to perfect.
And in order to do that, I have to hide my mistakes, right? Because if I show you my mistakes, then you're going to know that I'm not perfect. And everyone else seems like they're perfect because you're all hiding your mistakes too. And then there's this almost neuroses to hide our mistakes and to pretend that we're perfect. And that's where imposter syndrome really comes in because gosh, like, did anyone see that I just messed this up? Did anyone see what just happened there? And so to have the humility to be able to say, and this was a tool Gawande and what you did with your practice to say, gosh, where could I grow and do better? And what opportunities would I have to do better for my patients?
If I actually took a real look at things, but there's, there's data and I think it's 87%. I believe I was just looking at this, but I am real bad at remembering numbers, but about 87 percent of surgeons do not want to see their own outcome numbers. That's kind of scary, right? Like, I don't want to know how many times my patients leaked when I put their bowel back together. Don't you want me to know that?
Chrissie: I really want to know that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like if I'm not perfect, then I am existentially vulnerable. Not just learning, not just a learning person like everybody else, but my special status is at risk and my survival is attached to that special status.
Sharon: Absolutely. And it literally is these days, right? Because so many people, I, you know, I coach people, I talk to people all the time where they've had some bad outcome and now they're, you know, on a performance improvement plan and there's kind of this cycle of like worsening and worsening. And it's very, occasionally you find someone who's able to kick out of it and, and make the growth, but oftentimes they're not given the tools they need to be able to do that.
Chrissie: Yeah, and it's a threat to their well being. It's certainly a threat to their ability to solve for joy.
Sharon: And a threat to their, um, livelihood, too, right? I mean, think about the time that we've put into becoming physicians, and all of our training, all the sacrifice of, you know, financial sacrifice, time sacrifice, family sacrifice, to, to get us where we are.
Chrissie: Absolutely. What are some of the things that you find most useful, um, when you begin coaching a surgeon? Now, I know you've met one surgeon, you've met one surgeon, so we can't generalize, right? But, um, I do suspect there are probably some things, some themes around, um, what are the things that you find the most impactful for our precious surgeon colleagues who are ready to, challenge some of these ingrained concepts.
Sharon: You know, I actually think that the two things I would say are probably most important are number one, understanding what their values are, and I think people's values tell us so much about how they see the world. And like, for instance, I'm a truth, integrity, justice type person. Like that is one of my deepest values. You could be an achievement type oriented person, right? Like actually progress, progress and achievement and moving on to the next level is your highest value.
And so we could get into conflict where you're working on achievement and I'm saying, well, gosh, this doesn't seem equitable. This doesn't seem fair. And you're like, but at the end, we're going to have this like really cool thing that we wouldn't have if we, if we even everything out, you know, like if nobody gets any sand, any extra sand, nobody can stand up higher and reach to the next level. And I'm like, whoa, no, everything's supposed to be even. And I think once we understand people's values, our own and people we're in conflict with or people we have to interact with, we really have the opportunity to realize that they're not necessarily bad people. They're just valuing things differently. And that's the kind of empathy that I think we need to show for ourselves. And then also like gives us empathy to be able to move forward.
And I think, I don't know if this is a, I only coach surgeons, really. I have coached some other in the past, but like my practice is all surgeons, but I think that really understanding their values is so important in there. And it allows you to do the thought work when you get to kind of that level to say, okay, what's a different story that could still make sense and not necessarily be evil, um, but would help somebody else go a different direction than you went. And that's, I mean, I don't know, because Chrissie do you find that in your practice as well?
Chrissie: I, I really start with values a lot also, and I want to even subcategorize them into examined and unexamined values being expressed, right? Chosen and given values, conscious and subconscious values, because some value is always trying to be expressed through our actions. And when we understand that our value for excellent clinical performance is a conflict with our value of, um, you know, a healthy, balanced lifestyle or a close, loving relationship. Then we begin to understand on a deeper level the spiral deepens and deepens again.
And when we, you know, bisect with, Oh, what are societal values in my, in my over culture and also in my subculture, you know, what are the values in this particular field of surgery, as opposed to health care in general, as opposed to my community outside of this hospital and clinic building. And then we began to get really interesting information where, where values are at conflict. And when we have conflict, interprofessional, interpersonal conflict, it is often at the root. My values are not being, uh, demonstrated by your actions. And then we are like, Oh, okay. So where can we find that common ground where we both have a value that we can agree on and then contextualize some of the conflict.
Sharon: Yeah. And I think that that also like teaching people about that space to think about those questions is part of, again, moving them from reaction to response.
Chrissie: They can find their own intentionality and move toward the chosen, the examined, the conscious value expression.
Sharon: Yeah. And, and it's totally different. I mean, I tell people all the time, what do you want out of this interaction? I can walk into the grocery store and there can be a really rude person and all I want out of that interaction is to make it go away. So you know what, you get the last thing of orange juice, go ahead. It's not, it's not worth it. Right? And if I have a similar reaction where I'm fighting over resources with my partner or with my boss, that's a long term relationship and that resource may not mean nearly as much to me as the the actual interaction and relationship with that person and so now all of a sudden I have to think about things completely differently than I would when we just walked in and You know, argued over who got the orange juice. Maybe I just grab it and run because I don't really care what you think.
Chrissie: Right. The end game is my orange juice.
Sharon: Yeah. I just want to drink orange juice, man.
Chrissie: And maybe your end game is, um, the betterment of the craft and the profession. Maybe the end game is protecting, uh, trainees and maybe the end game is protecting
Sharon: patients. And or having a, you know, a sustainable relationship with my, my partner who I'm going to have interactions with a zillion times a year, you know, and, and I can't sacrifice, okay, you know what? Why don't you take the orange juice? Like it's, that's okay.
Chrissie: What do your surgeon clients often find most surprising about, um, working with you in a coaching construct?
Sharon: I think it's the idea that they're their own obstacle. And I think that's again, true, probably not unique to surgeons. People, when they're feeling really confined, they hold on to everything. Um, they just grasp at it and they won't let go. And they're like, if I let go of anything, everything's going to fall apart.
And I have this analogy that I've used that so I used to leave backpacking courses and things. And one of the things I used to do is rafting a bunch of whitewater rafting. And when you are no, I don't know if you've ever rafted or if listeners have rafted, but if you get stuck, you flip over and you go down and you're in a sump hole. The idea isn't that you're supposed to power your way out because you can't fight against that much water. You actually have to relax and as soon as you relax, the water spits you out. And it's really interesting. I kind of think a lot of my surgeons are diving into that sump hole and they are swimming as hard as they can against the current to try to get out of that sump hole and what they need to do is say, you know what, I just need to let go of everything. And then I can figure out what really matters to me. But first I got to get out of the sump hole.
Um, and, and it's a really kind of powerful thing is that it's amazing that when you take control of your intentions and what you want to do, magically you create more time, you create more energy, and you create more space and more joy. but it's really, really hard to, To say, no, because if I don't do this, someone will be angry. And if I don't do that, there's somebody will like to, I got to do no, no one's confining you to your office and saying, if you don't see 50, you're never going to leave here until you see your 50 patients today. Like they actually are not locking you in your office. Will there be consequences? Yes. Will there be choices along the way? Yes. But you actually have those choices. And you're make by not making any choices right now and letting someone else make all your choices. You actually still have costs.
Chrissie: Yeah. Love that insight. What does joy feel like in your work when you're doing what you love the most? What does joy feel like and what are you doing?
Sharon: So, um, I love when one of my clients is like, whoa, I can't like, Wait, I just had a realization and, oh my gosh, that makes everything so much easier. That makes everything, I, I never thought about it that way. Like that is one of my moments, um, that's just spectacular. That's, that's a joy, joy, joyful moment for me. And then the other one, I love public speaking too. I really do.
Chrissie: Nice. I, um, I definitely, yeah. Well, I love both of those, but I, I really love those moments when you know that that transformation, like they'll never not know whatever it is that they just realized, like the, the entire future is a slightly different shade because this has been added to their fund of knowledge, fund of insights, et cetera.
Sharon: Yeah, like the, the world will always look a little bit different now that they know this so profound. Yeah. I was just working with a client the other day and, you know, It was funny because they didn't want to go into their past at all and everything. And I was like, well, just tell me your story. I'm curious. And I saw this, like, procession of things that the person had done throughout their lives. And it was exactly where they were now. And I was like, did you ever see like that this was the same the whole way. And they were like, Whoa. I just never thought about it that way.
And I was like, it's just, it's just there like, because, and what's so interesting, and this is why I need a coach and you need a coach is because we don't have perspective. You know, we're like looking up at the trees, right? You live in Oregon with those beautiful, huge trees. We're looking up at the trees and we're like, wow, this is super cool. Like there's a lot going on here, but you can't see like what's going on around there, right? Because I mean, maybe I can see this much of the ground and stuff and I can look up and see a little bit of the branches, but I can't see what's going up 150 feet in the air. I can't see what's going on two trees over because it's just too thick and that kind of perspective we can't give ourselves. It doesn't make a difference how practiced, how much thought work you do. You need someone else to sometimes say, Hey, wake up.
Chrissie: Yeah. So useful to have an external spotter, somebody you can see around your blind corners.
Sharon: Yeah. And it's, it's a privilege, you know, it's, it's interesting. Yeah. you mentioned I've done a lot of surgery, right? And I do a lot less surgery now than I was doing a few years ago. And, um, because I'm doing a lot of this type of thing, but it's the same kind of joy. Like there was this joy when you took out a really nasty cancer and you were like, Oh, we got it all out. And it felt really good. And patient came back and you said the pathology is all good. And like, here we are, you know, and it's the same kind of joy. Yeah, it is. But, but that's the change. Like, that's why, you know, when I think about myself and I was thinking about this on a walk today, it's like, like, I'm just like, like changing things. I'm a change agent. Like that's my happy place. That's my joyful place. I'm an enzyme.
Chrissie: You're a catalyst. You're a super catalyst. That is so awesome. What, um, kinds of things have you previously taken to be constants that turned out to be variables in your solving for joy adventures?
Sharon: I think everything's a variable. Gosh.
Chrissie: Yeah. That's the punchline for sure. For me.
Sharon: Yeah. I guess I'm just, but, but I've always like my road into medicine was so circuitous. I led backpacking courses. I sold real estate for a while. I cooked in restaurants. I taught kids ski school. I did all these other things before I went to medicine. Um, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went into medicine and like work for doctors that border, like I've done just all this crazy stuff.
Chrissie: How did you go from these, these, uh, this adventure life to medicine?
Sharon: So I was doing, I was living in, in Colorado. And I was, I led backpacking courses and taught the ski school and did some of that. And then was working real estate to make some money and everything. And at some point I realized I really wanted to do something that made a difference. And I tend to be on a, like a seven year cycle. It's funny. Cause the seven year itch thing is a real thing for me, at least like it is exactly my cycle. And, um, Seven years after graduation, I was like, like I did that for seven years after I graduated from college. And I was like, I I'm done. Like I've, I've, I've lived this life.
I've done these things and now I need something that's deeper and meaningful. So then I went to medical school and residency. That was a little over seven years. And then, um, I, I did the same thing. It was funny. Cause uh, I loved full time medicine at a seven year mark, but seven years before that, I said to my husband, you'll laugh. I said, Hey, either we're going to move or we're going to like buy a new house or I'm going to have to have an affair like you have your choices. So we moved, but he decided it was way cheaper to like buy a different house. But, um, but I was like, I just, even though I did like a 14 year stretch of doing kind of the same thing, I was like,
Chrissie: that you gave him multiple choice. That's so funny.
Sharon: You know, there are always options.
Chrissie: Choose your adventure.
Sharon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chrissie: Sorry, I interrupted you. What were you? No, no, no, no.
Sharon: But it's just, it's just always been like, there's always just something about, I can't do the same thing for too long. I just, I get bored. I get, I'm, I'm done. And you know, it's not, I don't feel like I'm a quitter or anything, but it's just, I need a new challenge.
Chrissie: You know what, if you're an enzyme and you run out of substrate,
Sharon: Yeah,
do. I do. And I need to like, it needs to be different. I can't just keep digesting the same things.
Chrissie: Yes. Um, what are some of the pillars of, of your, you know, offerings to surgeons? I know that we talked about values and bringing intention. Yeah. Are there any other pillars you'd like to share?
Sharon: I think one of the things that's so important, you know, everything that I talk to my clients, Clients about, you could find on a Ted talk, you could find in a book, you could find in a video somewhere, or, you know, a podcast, um, there's no question, but I think the difference between all of that and having a coach to me is somebody who knows your particular values. I also tend to do, I do a strength exercise with all my people to, to figure out what their particular innate talents and strengths that they naturally go to.
And then how do I apply this? And how, again, with that kind of perspective, how do I see when I'm not applying it? Because, you know, my clients will come to me and they'll be, they'll say, gosh, I had this interaction and I, I don't, it didn't feel good, but I don't know why it didn't feel good. And then we'll look at it and we'll take it apart and we'll go, gosh, using your strengths and your values here, here are some of the things that maybe didn't go right. And here's how you could practice and do it differently, right? Because. And the coaching analogy, like going back to sports and things like that, Serena Williams is like, you know, or was at the top of her game. There was nobody who could play tennis better than Serena. She didn't stop having a coach because she was there. In fact, she probably leaned in more and she probably had multiple coaches for different things that she needed and wanted to get done. A nutrition coach,
Chrissie: I am my fiercest competition, right? How do I find out how to do even better?
Sharon: Absolutely. And, and continuing to have someone who is around you and helping you through those things. It is, it's, it's, I don't know. I just think it's interesting. It goes back to our perfectionism. We just need to admit that there's a way we could be better and have that desire for growth. And then it opens up for you.
Chrissie: And I want to pause it here that. It's not always about getting better. Sometimes it's about getting happier. Sometimes it's about being more well rounded or more grounded or, you know, having, um, deeper relationships with the people in our lives. And so we could perceive that as better, but there's something in me that wants to pull back from, um, achievement, accomplishment, um, you know, like hyper growth, because that can be co opted so easily by our inner critic and, um, Hyper perfectionist tendencies.
Sharon: It's so true. You know, one of the people I was coaching, um, had part of a job that when I first started coaching them, they came in and they said, I don't know if I want to do this job. And so we worked on a lot of different things and we found a way for them to do this job. And for a while it was working really well. And then about six months later, It kind of came back full circle. Like I have figured out how to make this work and I still don't want to be doing this right.
And so that enabled them to get that off their plate and to say, like, it's not because I can't do this or it's too hard, but it's just, this isn't what I want. It's not my joy. Yeah, it's not my joy. And, but that is so powerful to be able to, to say that. And I think for this person, they needed to go through that process because we talked about just getting it off their plate in the beginning. And that was, that felt like failure. But once they were able to accomplish it and kind of make it work, then they could say, yeah, it's not because It's not the challenge, it's just, it's not joy for me.
Chrissie: This is a thoroughly processed decision, not a reflex reaction that could be perceived by my critic brain as quitting.
Sharon: Yeah. And I agree with you. I think the desire for more is just, it's what our society teaches us so often that we can have more, we should want more. And more very rarely causes happiness.
Chrissie: So true. After a certain level, more causes very little increase in happiness or joy.
Sharon: Yeah, I think that's true. And I think it's about understanding kind of where they are. I mean, I have reworked my life in the last year and a half. And I was talking to a friend just days ago and I was, they said, Oh, how is everything going? And I go, I don't do anything I don't want to be doing. I'm here doing this podcast because this podcast is bringing me joy and talking to you and getting to see you is bringing me joy. And you know, yesterday I went off and I played pickleball because that was joyful, you know, and I make time for, for doing the things that I want to do.
And I can still be doing things that are meaningful to me, but I can kind of give them an aliquots that allow me to love them. When I go into the hospital now, I love being in the hospital. And when I was in the hospital, when I was still working full time. It sometimes felt like I was like digging, you know, like, and carrying my patients on my shoulder. And, you know, I was frustrated and that frustration affected everything around me. And it wasn't, it wasn't joyful anymore. The, the love of medicine and the love of patients and the love of surgery that brought me there was, it got wrung out of me.
Chrissie: So identifying. I mean, just because I like ice cream doesn't mean I want a five gallon serving of it, right? Um, I like fall in love with you know, inpatient medicine, when I get to do it in tiny spurts, like, Oh yes, I do love this. And I don't want to do it all day, every day, you know, 60 hours a week forever at all.
Sharon: But I think, and I will say, I think, um, in healthcare, we have to find a way for people to find their joy inside of there. And there's so many rules and regulations and, um, That, that are making it really, really difficult where we really feel like we're widgets rather than valued members of a team.
Chrissie: We are recording this on day one of the first physician strike in Oregon, my former group of hospitalists, along with our OB colleagues and palliative care colleagues. Um, have actually struck as of today. So I'm sure that'll be in the national news, uh, for the next few weeks. But that is, that is at the corner of it is that we have, we have been feeling like widgets for a long time and the widgets need to be regarded as human beings. Yeah. We cannot do our work well, and we cannot stay in the high pressure jobs that we embody without being regarded as human beings and having the volume and complexity of our work acknowledged, supported with adequate staffing, um, and deeply considered beyond profit and loss statements.
Sharon: Yeah. I hope we find a way out of it because we, we need, medicine matters and being able to take care of people. And I know, you know, we all didn't do this and it doesn't make a difference what side or what position you're, you're on, but there's like, just like we were talking about the different values, right? It's important that we're not just losing money in healthcare, but I don't think the way to do that is to continue to squeeze more and more and more out of the people who are working.
Chrissie: Humans are not the only elasticity in the system.
Sharon: Yeah.
Chrissie: Yeah. We won't solve that today. I wish. But I do, um, I have hope that something, uh, meaningful will occur here.
Sharon: And I think we need change, right? We need to be, I think we need to go back and kind of rethink the system. In healthcare right now, I would say we're, we don't take great care of people. We take good care of people, but depending on what demographic group you come from, it's very variable. So, yeah. And if you took us as a whole, we're not taking excellent care of everybody. That's for sure. We don't have a workforce that is satisfied and feeling joyful in what they're doing and financially we're not viable. And that's a recipe for disaster because what metrics are we winning at if all three of those metrics are, are not where they need to be?
Chrissie: Absolutely. Sharon, thank you so much for hanging out with me today, for delving into all of these topics.
It's been an absolute pleasure for me. I am honored to have you as a friend and colleague, and I know that these will prompt thoughts and contemplations for, for people listening. Um, please share, uh, where our surgeon friends might find you if they're curious about connecting with you as a resource.
Sharon: Absolutely. So my website is theintentionalsurgeon. com. So very easy. Um, my podcast is also The Intentional Surgeon, and I would say that although my coaching practice is really restricted to surgeons, I talk a lot about changing culture. And I think that's applicable to a lot of people in a lot of places in medicine. So, um, happy to have anybody follow or give me comments or tell me what they think. Um, it is also always a pleasure to see you and I am honored to have the opportunity to be here with you today.
Chrissie: Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening in, and we will look forward to seeing you next week. Take care everybody.
Before we wrap up, I want to take a moment to share something truly exciting. This year I have the incredible honor of stepping into the role of stewarding the physician coaching summit. This is the premier gathering of physician coaches. It is our national conference and international conference. It's a space that has inspired and connected so many of us over the years. I am so grateful to Dr. Kathy Steppen, whose vision and leadership have made this summit a cornerstone for our community. She has built something truly extraordinary and I'm humbled to carry it forward into its next chapter.
The 2025 Physician Coaching Summit is going to be more than a conference. It's an experience. It's a space where we don't just learn, we connect, discover, and renew. And this year it's all happening November 6th through 8th at Savannah, a breathtaking wellness resort in carefree Arizona, just outside Phoenix designed for exactly this kind of experience. It's a place where you can exhale, where you can slow down, stay present and step into deep connection with yourself, with others and what's next.
Our theme this year is having our own backs. It's all about reconnecting with what truly matters, stepping into your power and holding space for growth, rest, and everything in between. Whether you're looking to reignite your coaching practice, cultivate your joy, or simply reconnect with yourself, the summit will meet you where you are. If this speaks to you and you were a physician coach or physician coach in training, or perhaps you're a well aligned potential sponsor or exhibitor, this is the perfect time to join us.
Early bird pricing is available for a limited time until March 1st. And if you feel called to share your expertise, we are open for speaker submissions as well. All the information is available at the physician coaching summit. com. So check it out, grab your ticket and get in Reach out to us at hello at the physician coaching summit. com with any questions. Details will be in the show notes. May we honor what's been built, embrace what's next and have our own backs together. I want to take a quick moment to acknowledge our incredible team. This podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn, post production and more handled by Alyssa Wilkes, and my steadfast friend and director of operations, Denise Crain. Our theme music is by Denys Kyshchuk cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken and a special appreciation to my loyal champion and number one fan, Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in everyone. May we continue caring for ourselves, caring for others, and may we continue solving for joy. Take care. We'll see you next time.
