Tony: best feeling I can get that's joyful is when I'm not, too worried about the future, I'm not letting myself get in that space, and I'm not thinking too hard on the past, like consumed in the past and much more present and I can just be there.
Chrissie: Songwriting, is a process of making the unmanifest manifest. It is about discovery more than manufacturing.
Stephanie: the world, it can be so tumultuous and our schedule and our expectations and all the anxieties that come with all of that, and so, um, finding that steady place feels like joy.
Chrissie: You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so excited to bring you this conversation with my dear friends, Stephanie Schneiderman and Tony Furtado. Welcome, Stephanie and Tony.
Stephanie: Thank you for having us.
Tony: So glad to be here.
Chrissie: Um, Stephanie and Tony may be familiar to you from many things. Uh, each of them have a illustrious music career. Tony is also a very accomplished sculptor. They are artists and incredibly valued community members. They are parents, uh, and they are some of the kindest, warmest people you could ever honestly meet. True story. Tony and Stephanie and I met when I had a very tiny one woman micropractice, and I was doing primary care and got to meet them as they were expecting their son, 12 years ago.
Yes, it's been a while. Um, but luckily we've gotten to stay friends and stay in touch and we get to talk about solving for joy things today with you two.
Stephanie: Yes. I have memories of, being in the beautiful space you created and coming to, you know, you were our pediatrician for our son and I feel like we talked your ear off back then about even things that didn't have to do with our son. So we're just continuing the theme. All of it. Well, like, at least unilaterally it felt that way for our side yes.
Chrissie: It was love at first sight. All around. Yes. We'll never stop thanking our mutual friend Camille for connecting us.
Stephanie: Yes. So, so thankful.
Chrissie: Yeah. Yeah. So good. So today's conversation is just kind of improvisational. Um, you guys have stories together and individuals and you're my first couple, my first dual, um, podcast interview. So I'm excited to hear just, you know, what sparks inside you when you begin to think about the concept of joy and how you approach joy in your lives?
Stephanie: Okay. Actually, one of the first things that comes up for me is, It's the word contentment and, being where I am. So I guess feeling present feels joy, um, because it's just the world, it can be so tumultuous and the details of our own lives could be so tumultuous and our schedule and our expectations and all the anxieties that come with all of that, that we're just writing that surface water all of the time. And so for me coming to slightly deeper place under the surface where it's more still feels content and present. And so, um, finding that steady place feels like joy.
Chrissie: As you describe that, I feel it in my body, like I feel like that's settling downward rather than our upwardly displaced energy, which is such a frequent aspect of our pace of life right now.
Tony: I think I think I can latch on exactly to what you said by thinking my my most calm, zen like, like, the best feeling I can get that's joyful is when I'm not, too worried about the future, I'm not letting myself get in that space, and I'm not thinking too hard on the past, like, like, uh, consumed in the past and worried about the future and much more present and I can just be there. And I tried to get myself like, like when I, when I feel stressed out, I try to just get into that present moment and then it's easier to find joy. Does that make sense?
Chrissie: It's very Zen. It's neither grasping or striving, and it's also not obsessing or fixating. It is very much in this present moment. And in our pre conversation, you alluded a little bit to how you access that in your studio. Um, I wish I had visuals for the podcast, but will you share with us just a little bit about your process as well as the product, but tell us about you as a sculptor a little bit. Cause I think that's such a beautiful doorway into, um, an expression of joy.
Tony: Sure. Um, well it started when I was, a youngster, you know, I was, I always found joy in making things with my hands, you know, that would calm me down. has always been kind of a Zen thing. Even when I was just making model airplanes or, um, or drawing or, or, uh, in seventh grade, we were introduced to ceramics. And so I got really into it instantly. I would even take Chunks of it home and work on sculptures at home. And then when I got into high school, I got even deeper in it and had made plans to become. Uh, a sculptor when I grew up and I went to college as a fine arts major. I left early to, to tour and record, uh, and be a professional musician. But about 20 years ago, I started getting back into sculpting because it, it kind of felt like a need.
Once I started allowing myself that time in that space and creating a space I could call studio Because a studio doesn't have to be a studio. It's wherever you practice. It's wherever you create That was my basement at the time When I lived across town and whenever I'd get down there, I would just feel my heart rate lower. I would feel, I would feel everything that the cruddiness of the music business would disappear and I could just be very present in what I did. And that's the way it is even now, when I've got a professional studio across town, I go there and I create things. I actually sell and get commissioned and put in galleries. Doesn't matter. I'm, I'm, when I'm in there, everything's still. Becomes a little more still and I, I feel, um, more healthy.
Stephanie: there's this feeling that as a songwriter, um, I call this, I call it kind of like a drifty mindset, which drifty to me, I guess, if I were to define it means there is zero attachment because it's totally out there. It would be inappropriate to have attachment in the moment of writing, if I'm sitting at the piano or I'm, or I'm playing tar and writing a song because you're following something that I believe, like when you hear this idea for a song, it's almost like seeing a door that's just a little ajar and knowing that this room, the song is the room and this room exists. It's, it already is there in my job is to go sit in it for a while and discover what it is. And I'm sure you relate sculptures because they already exist.
And so that drifting, this allows, it's almost like a soft vision. When you look at a painting with, you know, you look at something with soft vision, but you're doing that with your brain, you're just loosening and it's an openness to whatever that is supposed to be. So it's not really a problem. If we attach, it becomes more from an ego place, like I want it to sound this way, or I want it to be this way. I want it to be this way versus just following what it already is and like having reverence for the thing that you're discovering, not having it have to be anything, because that's when you're going to like, you're going to kill the, the natural state it's supposed to live in.
Chrissie: You're describing this in such a sacred way, Stephanie. Like I'm hearing like reverberations of this is a process. Songwriting, right, is a process of making the unmanifest manifest. It is about Discovery. more than manufacturing.
Stephanie: Absolutely. Although that's the tricky thing of the industry and society is that it's all about manufacturing. So you have to like totally block that all the way out of that moment. It has no business. Right. The business has no business being in that room with us.
Chrissie: I really believe you. And I also want to say that even though it's like something coming through you when it's in, you know, when any of us are in our, our highest vibrational, creative state, wow, we're going woo. I love it. Um, also we are still adding to it, right? It's a co creative process. There is some inspiration. We've been given this golden thread and we can't clamp onto it or it will like basically break and disappear. But if we attend to it well, we're also going to be filtering it through our mind, body, spirit, and experiences. We're going to be enriching it with our own essence. So if it comes through you, this song, this sculpture, music, writing, whatever, the process, dance, um, It will have a different essence and sense and sparkle that it came from you. Then that same inspiration landed in another artist's brain.
Stephanie: I totally agree with that. Um, I also think that that creativity over time is like part of it because, um, the snapshot of that moment you were in when you first, maybe followed it. And then you let it, oftentimes it's not all at once. So once in a while, it could be all at once, but most of the time it's bits over time. And so then kind of a new person and the second time you come in, so you might have a different sensibility and choice making when you leave it, you do the same thing.
And so then it becomes a snapshot of like the time, the era that you wrote it for the era that you made it, and then had you done it a decade later, it would have been a different song or whatever. I,
Tony: um, was going to add to that, say that, Uh, another way. Sometimes I see it. I love all of how you're describing the creative process, and it's like this thing that exists, or a room. You, I also see it as an adventure. You know, sometimes when I'm making a sculpture or writing a song, um, I set on a path that I know has many forks, many possibilities, and you just kind of follow, you know, you just, you, you're going down a path. You're seeing where it goes. And you can always double back. You can always take another one. You can always cut a whole new path, cut your own little, you know, make your way through the wilderness and find, find where you're going.
Stephanie: I love that. It's, that kind of makes me think of one thing. and I described this in a project that I'm creating that I know it'll come later, but Um, it feels so brave every single time to not know if it's gonna land where you are, like, end up feeling proud of, and then doing it anyway, though. So you'd like, you look at, you stare the void of there's uncertainty, whether it's going to be quote good in your opinion or anyone else's for that matter. Um, and you still need the value of doing it is why you do it. And it's so different than the messaging because that we hear in the world. So that's why I feel like it's kind of a brave, bold move as, um, I don't know, creators of something from nothing. Because you don't know if that time is, you know, worthwhile in the sense of if it turns out good or not, you're just doing it anyway.
Chrissie: Yeah, that is so powerful. You know, doing it scared, doing it uncertain, doing it anyway is in large part just being a very faithful partner to creation..
Stephanie: Totally. Yeah.
Chrissie: I'm showing up. I'm showing up without a negotiated outcome for myself. I'm showing up because it's my duty to show up as a creator.
Stephanie: Yeah. It's like, um, you know, I think of boxers, a weird example, but boxers are willing and comedians, I feel like comedians and boxers have so much they are just willing to. Feel the humility of taking the hits and being beat up by the process and then learning and then doing it differently next time. And they just like the comedians that we love and know and love, they've been willing to take that hit for decades. And now we, of course, like revere them. And I feel like boxers are the same to be like, you have to be willing to take the hit. You don't know if it's going to be good.
Chrissie: This is exactly aligned with a little daydream that I was having yesterday. Actually, um, uh, you know, right now my creative process is coaching and also writing about it. And my creative process in some ways is writing these, you know, pithy little emails that hopefully come with some insight and some inspiration and a little bit of entertainment and a little bit of invitation.
Stephanie: Yes. I love them. I'm reading them and they do. I love them. Thank you.
Chrissie: Thank you. I mean, it feels like a creative process. Um, act, because you don't know how it's going to land in other people's minds, right? And then also as being, you know, in being a creator in business. Like, part of that is being willing to take the hits, too. Like, oh, yeah. Being a boxer is learning to take hits.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Chrissie: Yes, you get to deliver them, too. A big part of learning to be a boxer is taking the hits.
Stephanie: I'm not a boxer, but it seems like that.
Chrissie: I'm not a boxer. We're way out on a limb about stuff I don't know anything about. That's funny. Yes, the creative process.
Stephanie: It's from books I've read, that Willie Vlotton book that's about the boxer. I love that book.
Chrissie: Yeah. Um, when you were talking about sitting in a room and discovering the song, it, um, sparks in me, uh, a reminder to ask you to tell us, tell our listeners about this passion project of yours right now called You Are The Song.
Stephanie: So, um, I have a new, um, I'm developing, um, and creating, um, what I call a songwriting experience and the title is called, you are the song. And it's an eight week course that walks participants through lyric writing, melody composition, song arrangement, We walk, we go into the recording studio and record their songs. There's a performance for friends and family, like an intimate performance, and then the digital release of their original song, um, on my, you are the song channels. And so, um, the purpose of this is to reveal yourself to yourself in a song. And the idea that It's completely accessible to non musicians as well as musicians.
For non musicians, it's really a step by step way to approach the medium of songwriting, which I think arguably one of the most revered of all the art forms and the most, like, um, inclusive. You can just kind of sing along and, you know, in terms of just music as a medium, and walking, um, walking through the idea that you don't, you don't know that you have your own sensibility as a songwriter and to discover it and then trust it and the act of those two exact things, discovering that you do have a sensibility as a songwriter and then trusting it.
It's really powerful because that can ripple into other parts of your brain, things you never thought you could do that you could all, can do, it's doable. From not being doable to doable. And the way that we, um, discover melody for those who aren't a musician or, or a singer, or someone that doesn't know how to access melody is we use our natural rhythm and cadence of speech.
And so think about it. We're singing all day long. Our phrasing is constantly forming like calls. And then responses, both in pitch or intonation and in rhythm. And so we're already doing it all day long. And so we, if we start the course by accessing what I call a mountain of words, through all these prompts and just telling the truth on the page, being really truthful, and I think about things that are really evocative, at least to me personally, and the things that give me goosebumps are the things that ignite our curiosity, inner Chia pet, um, they tend to be true, not clever. Um, true, not cool. So we're just trying for truth. And I guess trying is even the wrong word because it's simpler than that. It's like this idea that when you're looking at yourself in the mirror and no one else is around, there's no such thing as trying.
It just, you just are. And so like capturing that on the page. Um, and then once we create like a mountain of words using all these prompts, I have like a work booklet that goes with the course. We mine through the mountain of words and we find these little phrases that feel evocative simply because we like the way they roll off the tongue or we think they're true. So the two things. And then we listen to them and we find the melody and then I personally as a musician help someone construct the song like around those phrases that become musical patterns. And we grow those patterns into sections called verses, and then we grow the patterns into sections called choruses. And we create a song and it's really the person creating a song, even if they don't think they can. I feel like I can like a thousand percent guarantee that anybody can walk away with a song that is theirs that they wrote. And um, we also do a little bit of learning about music terminology and learning about song arrangement. And just so there's some shared language, semantics,
Chrissie: it's such an inspiring inspiration that you've had to offer this experience to people because it really does make it accessible. And while I have not been through a, you are the song my wife has. So I have an insider's glimpse of how special. It can be Oh
Stephanie: my God, her song is so good. I still think about it. I love her song.
Chrissie: Yeah. Her song was so good. And she would not identify as a musician, definitely a music lover, a big enthusiast, but does not identify as a musician and had this really touching experience unfold, um, that was very evocative. And I know that you, you must have a number of experiences and stories that have created Um, very imprinting memories for you through this.
Stephanie: So I've run this course with four different groups and one of the groups was, um, a group at Harmony Academy, a group of teens and Harmony Academy is a high school, a public high school for kids in recovery from drug addiction. So I just did it this last fall and it was an unbelievable experience. I'm blown away. Kids are really authentic and courageous and So much fun.
Chrissie: Yeah. Can you tell us Particular story without, you know, any identifying features that might represent that.
Tony: What about the rockin guy?
Stephanie: He is amazing.
Tony: Oh There's
Stephanie: so many one of the wanted to do like a death metal song. And it's awesome. It's called plead for mercy. And it's just, it's just like full of all this angst. And it was, but the other one that I was going to talk about was this young girl who, um, had all this. It's had a bunch of things written in her journal about a friend who passed away from overdosing. and it was such a beautiful song called like we used to, and it's like dreamy and, and very, this pop sensibility and almost trance, like in the words were on the surface, it's like, it's like on the surface, it's like, it's like you're drowning, drowning is a comfort. Well, so it goes on the surface. It's like you're drowning. Drowning is a comfort. Sorrow is what you know. And we just like repeated that. It's like this beautiful trance like thing with all these harmonies that we added and I don't think she ever thought, I just listened to her speak that over and over that phrase and that kind of put us in that room that we talked about the, of the song, the song defines itself based on the mood of those words and her very like beautiful phrasing. The writing of that wave of those words and turn it into the most beautiful song. All the songs are posted, um, on a SoundCloud page.
Tony: It's like, yeah. I, I haven't taken the course myself, but, uh, I've witnessed some of the folks taking the class. Um, and you know, cause sometimes it's right here, uh, and so to hear what everyone's going to, it's so transformational, I mean, and I, I, it's like the group becomes one, like they are there for each other and it's, it's an incredible process to witness and the people who come in, non musicians. And all of a sudden they have a song, it's like, what? You know, it's so cool to watch.
Stephanie: It's so cool to be, to be part of. And what was nice about doing it at Harmony Academy is I brought in another songwriter. So I'm kind of building a team and I hope to expand that this year. So it's not just me, um, it includes some more people and I'm wanting to bring this to groups of women that are, uh, Dealing with breast cancer and the people involved with the Dougie Center and women who've been trafficked or both men and women who've been trafficked and just groups as like a tool or for, um, I guess processing or metabolizing life just like we do. We're living. But helping somebody do that in a song.
Chrissie: You're really honoring the healing power of songwriting and music creation.
It is therapeutic. I
Tony: mean, we do it as therapy for ourselves. I remember when, when my father passed away, um, she's 12, 13 years ago. I remember I started the process of healing, just writing, not intending to have songs that I would record, but it was. It was therapeutic for me. I ended up getting some songs I recorded, but during the process, it made me like, really think back to my relationship with my father and, and how his life and his death impacted me and to, to put it into song, um, yeah, it was processing, it was finding understanding and coming to terms. And so to see people, you be able to, to help other people do that. Yeah. Who aren't musicians, singers, just, I'm in awe.
Stephanie: This song you wrote about your dad. What's it called? One of the, one of the songs.
Tony: Uh, Ashes of a Man.
Chrissie: Beautiful. It's reminding me, um, my father's death anniversary is coming up next month and it will be three years, so it's still relatively newer. But one of the things that I felt an urgent urge to do while he was You know, at hospice and, you know, in his final days was I made a giant playlist of all the songs that he told me he loved and I had a good sense of his music, of course, just from being his daughter, but I had this urgency. Like, I won't be able to recreate this playlist ever again. So I. I connect with my father's spirit by going on walks with his playlist in my ears, and it just connects me to him. You know, maybe it's an idea somebody else will find useful too.
Tony: If I did that with my father's playlist, it would be one song. Tony Orlando and Don tie a yellow ribbon on the old oak tree. It's the only song I've ever thought of listening to.
Chrissie: No Captain and Tennille?
Tony: Nope. No.
Chrissie: The core of my dad's catalog for me is Marty Robbins.
Stephanie: Same. Really? Same era. My dad loves Marty Robbins. Yeah. Chuck Mangione, Marty Robbins. You
Chrissie: we talk a lot about this, um, you know, doing the mental math of solving for joy all the time. And, you know, we, we have more and less adaptive or functional ways of solving for joy. But one of the funnest things for me to discover. Is what people have found to be variables that they used to think were constants. And I know that, you know, things naturally change over time. Um, but I wonder if you guys have thoughts about what were once like steady variables that you thought would probably not change that are now variables that you're like, actually, there's a whole new approach and I'm finding more joy with it now.
Tony: Yeah. I have one of those. Um, I started, um, into the music business, like, uh, running, pretty much. I dove in, I left college early, and signed up with a, uh, a touring folk band called Lori Lewis and Grant Street. Berkeley, California based bluegrass and folk band. And, um, at 20 years old, I just, that became my life.
So, uh, that's how I started earning my living. I was, I started identifying, self identifying as a touring artist. It was like that would, that would come out as out of my mouth. I'm a touring, recording musician for years and years. And, and my record, my. Touring became more and more and more until it got to the point where I was gone two thirds of the year uh toward the end of the 90s beginning of the 2000s and it gradually tailed off and then when we had our son tailed off more But still it's always been present in my mind.
That's what I do. That's what I do. That's what I do until recently, um, I started rethinking this out of uh, out of You Necessity, uh, emotional necessity, everything. Family, uh, financial, it's like, it's, maybe I don't have to do that. Maybe I'm not just, maybe that's not how I have to identify. Uh, it was becoming too much, wasn't, becoming something that, you know, now as a 57 year old man who's a father and a husband, and who enjoys very much being home. I enjoy being home more, much more than I enjoy being on the road. I love performing on a stage, but now I think my own paradigm has shifted to where, um, I don't have to identify like that. I can identify. Sure. I'm a musician. I'm a visual artist. Um, I get so much joy out of just being in my studio creating art. And then when I, when I need to, when I need to go out and play a few gigs, I'll do that. But that's not how I'm gonna identify anymore.
Chrissie: I love that you brought in the identity piece. The identity piece is such a powerful insight. I want to like pause and like really plant that. Um, I'm thinking back to some of the things that I learned from Atomic Habits, James Clear's book, Atomic Habits. And we won't often change the habit, even the ones that we really want to change. When we haven't shifted our identity. So as soon as we begin using language, I am blank. I mean, we're saying I equal blank, you know, that's the mathematical representation of that as opposed to I am currently doing blank, right?
Like it's a little bit more complexity in that, like I'm Tony Furtado. I happen to currently be spending a lot of time on the road touring instead of I am. A touring musician and the more we practice that identity statement, our language is setting up reality all around us, right? We're becoming that with every pass of practicing that. I mean, not to get all into neuro linguistic programming because I'm not an expert in that field, but I do really believe that our words and thoughts are the most powerful creators of our reality.
Tony: It's, and it's been, it's been tricky for me to come to that realization and shift. And every time I say it differently now, it's like, Oh, right. You know, and it's like almost a, let's remove that. And um,
Chrissie: Yeah.
Tony: It's been emotional, and it's been tricky, but I'm so much more happy in this new, you know, realization, this new, uh, identity. I don't know.
Chrissie: Thank you for sharing that, because it also doesn't mean that you have to, like, push away and have, you know, Total rejection or a version of that you are just like, I'm actually just focusing my energy into this part of my living experience right now, which is the very rich and beautiful opportunity to be a parent and a husband and a visual artist that needs time. In the city where his studio is.
Stephanie: Yeah. I mean, he's just in the recording studio yesterday. Yeah. Making a new album. He's like making a new album as we speak.
Tony: So I'm still making music, I
Stephanie: One thing, um, to, I don't, I don't know how to rephrase it using the words constant variable versus not, but I think what it brings up for me is, what I thought my career as a musician would be or look like versus what it has looked like what looked like and, it's like the drive is still there to continue to create, of course, I don't want to change kind of how I live, but, um, finding acceptance. And redefining what I used to think of as like, that's a failure. So this, I guess the variable that's surprising is the redefining of things like that. And how it has to do, like, there are certain eras in your life that match a certain, a certain kind of drive. Just the act of touring it's the where the wear and tear is pretty intense and it's also really exciting and thrilling and adventurous and, but, um, at certain point it becomes a Like at least where I'm at personally, it's less appropriate, I guess, for me personally to go and tour a bunch.
Um, so I have to, so I have to redefine like what that might mean, like more regional shows and just shorter one offs or two offs or three offs and smaller amount of that, um, and, and having a redefinition of, um, what success looks like. Now, because I think I'm probably guilty of clinging to an older definition of what success was or looks like that might not be as appropriate today for who I am like right now at my age, right here, right now. And so it's surprising. That's all very surprising to me because I think based, based on my definitions, when I was a lot younger. It would feel like a failure.
Chrissie: Hmm. Well, we're always rubbing up against culture's definition of success and not really being asked for our own generative expression of, of success.
Stephanie: Also, it's really easy to weigh heavy on the things that don't happen versus all of the things that do that are like beyond your expectations, like amazing It's just, if for some reason, it's like at the end of a gig, if someone was like, that was great. I love this. And then someone was like, giving any sort of constructive feedback, constructive feedback feels so much heavier. Why is that? It's so weird. We're just inclined to like, go to the critique of it all and the negative,
Chrissie: the negativity bias is so real. Like our brain's tendency to filter out all of the positive and perseverate about the negative, even if it's really minor, in the face of much positive. And, you know, the theory on that, at least evolutionarily, is that, like our ancestors that obsessed about the negative or the potentially dangerous, the threat, they tended to survive because that rustle in the, you know, Bushes might be a tiger, right? And those who ignored it and thought, Oh, it's probably fine. ate up. eaten. Eight, eight,
Tony: eight,
Stephanie: yeah. I'm just trying to survive. Just trying to survive.
Tony: You know, I was thinking about the, like thinking about the idealism, like idealistic nature of like when you're young, right? Like, I almost feel like, I don't know if you get this sometimes, but there's almost like this weight around my neck of what looked like success back then. Like the things that didn't happen, all the goals I had, all the things I expected to become in the music business or, you know, these dreams that, you know, it's like, I'm wearing this like, Oh, that, but I'm doing all this other stuff. But all these things, they didn't happen. That, that young guy, that, that 21 year old idealistic banjo player from my youth that didn't get all these things done, but I got all this other stuff, but there's all this weight. So it's like, I feel like I need to clip this weight and get it out.
Chrissie: Yeah. Let's clip it right off. We do not need that weighing us down.
Tony: Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah. No. In a way, just. Just bringing this into the realm of, of your wording, solving for joy. I think the speaking about failure and the definition of that and where we're at in life and then how it aligns with that kind of thing. It's so, it's so aligned to like where, who we are at this point in our lives. So interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Because I think there is contentment in, uh, even if something does feel like a failure. So just let it be a failure.
Chrissie: a notion that we are continually constructing and reconstructing our own self concept, right? That are, are analytical, evaluative brain is always comparing where we are to some imagined ideal, and therefore, with negativity bias, associating, um, you know, with the negative feedback more strongly than with the positive feedback, right? Because they both exist and probably not even in equal parts, like depending on your perspective, there are just so many. So many great things that happen and are happening and have happened, but it's so easy to fall prey to that negativity bias and wrap it into our ongoing self concept constructing and feel, you know, not warm and loving toward where we are or who we are or how we're doing. Um, And we know from parenting that the, the best way to support a human moving forward is to accept them unconditionally and be warm and loving. It doesn't mean we're not teaching them things, right? It just means we're warm and loving.
Stephanie: And it's really similar. The unconditional place is similar to that feeling during writing song or. Making a sculpture, making a sculpture because, I'm so used to, I mean, I don't even call it a failure, but I'm, I'm used to things you write and then you just choose it. Like they're not right for the song anyway. You let them go. And it doesn't mean a ounce of wasted energy writing it. Are you kidding me? Cause that could have been the thing that led you to the thing you did keep. So it's so easy in that realm to see all of what might be called failures or successes and all of the things in between those black and white, um, definitions as part of the process and feel like it's just part of the process. I know it's part of the process. I'm so okay with that. I mean, not that it's, It's refinement. Yeah. To actually, like, apply that to love. It's like a different thing.
Chrissie: I love that. I mean, that would be like construing every piece of clay that you carve away as a mistake or failure. Right? You're like, I'm actually revealing what wants to come out right now, not, not having failure. . Um, I want to communicate how incredibly much talent is on the screen right now, and that when I connect with your music, um, both of you, or when I just glimpse pictures, Tony of your, your whales, your animals in general, they are so full of life and energy and craftsmanship and skill and like expression, they really are just profoundly good. Um, I'm so glad that they are in the world and that you are answering the call to create them. And that goes for the music just, just as much, you know, for both of you, you were doing the public a service all the time,
Tony: as well as ourselves.
Chrissie: Yes, yes.
Stephanie: Um, right back at you for everything you're creating, because I had the experience of taking one of your 12 by 12s and I got so much from it. It was really mind opening and, it kind of helped me think of things from a more curious standpoint versus judgmental standpoint and to catch, I guess, the patterns of my thoughts and see that there's other ways. I can choose for those patterns. Oh, that's really, really powerful.
Chrissie: I'm so glad. What kinds of tricky things have, um, obstructed joy for, for you both in the past, what kinds of things have been, um, things you needed to grow through to find joy again?
Stephanie: I think I do a lot of self imposed like urgency. Um, yeah, and then I back myself into a wall and , I I probably do a lot of, things all on my own versus stretching out and getting other people to help. That might be because of a fight of a financial motivated. But, it can all feel like overwhelming to do it all. But a lot of times as a musician, you really are, or as an artist, self employed position, you are doing all the things you are stepping into the role of all the things.
Chrissie: It's a bit of hustle.
Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. It's sustaining the hustle and the, and the life of being online and expressing the hustle of like constantly showing for itself. Like here's what I've got. Here's what I've got. Here's what I've got. Here's what I've got. Yeah. That's interesting because, um, I think I'm more inclined to just like create really privately and have a privacy around, not that you don't like to talk about it, but, um, not share it while it's happening and then, and then just share what, let the, let the thing that created sort of speak for itself. And the constant, the constant online, Sharing that is sort of acquired to like keep yourself up there, which that, that feels like a struggle because it doesn't really match like my own senses.
Tony: Yeah. I hear you. It's like the paradigm, like, as we, as we get older in this business, in any creative business, um, it, you have to, I mean, you don't have to, but it's, there's this shifting paradigm of, of connection, you know, with the, with I mean, you know, with all of the socials and stuff. And if you're growing up in a time of the socials, you're so quick to use that stuff. You're so quick to think about how to, you know, Manipulate that stuff to serve your purpose to reach your crowd or a new crowd where like for me, um, I have to learn quickly about this new thing called whatever and figure out all the whatever little intricacies of how to utilize that thing and by the time I figure it out Onto a new platform using this other thing and this thing over here. That's for the old farts like me. I just figured that out. I got to do this one now and this one and this other one is just now coming about, but how am I going to do that? And then create these, what are supposed to be awesome pieces of art and music and then get it out there.
Stephanie: Right. Yeah, right. There's only Yang. Only Yang. All Yang. All the time. There's no Yin. Ever.
Tony: I remember the days, and you do too, where you go to Kinko's and you make your little postcard. You have all your gigs put on it. And you send it out to your, your, your, not email list, your snail mail. And that was actually pretty zen and pretty fun sometimes. But you did that. Yeah. That's all you had to do.
Chrissie: What if you did that again?
Tony: Uh, yeah, well, people talk about it.
Chrissie: Like, I'm retro. Gen
Stephanie: X, y'all. You just release eight tracks and then walk the people door to door and just tell people about our game.
Chrissie: Oh my God. So funny. So funny. What would you tell your younger selves about Joy as we begin to wrap up?
Tony: Be okay with change.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Tony: Learn, learn from your missteps. It's okay. It's okay. It's not the end of the world. If, if you, uh, if you mess up, you just roll with it.
Chrissie: Just part of being human.
Stephanie: Well, mine is similar. It overlaps. Um, I would say just like, trust yourself. All the way.
Chrissie: Yeah. Back to that discover and trust couplet from earlier. I love it. Thank you guys so much for being here with me today and having this beautiful conversation about joy and about the incredible work that you both do as artists.
Stephanie: Yeah. Thank you so much. So fun. Yeah.
Chrissie: Yeah. So good to have you. Thank you guys for listening and we will see you on the next episode of Solving for Joy.
I want to take a quick moment to acknowledge our incredible team. This podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn, post production and more handled by Alyssa Wilkes, and my steadfast friend and director of operations, Denise Crain. Our theme music is by Denys Kyshchuk cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken and a special appreciation to my loyal champion and number one fan, Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in everyone. May we continue caring for ourselves, caring for others, and may we continue solving for joy. Take care. We'll see you next time.
