Wendy: That's the thing about our emotional experience. You can't say, well, we're going to toss this one out. It's like going in and trying to extract one of the colors of the rainbow. You can't do it. The rainbow is, you know what it is because it has such a wide variety of colors.
Chrissie: And my patients and my community need the full breadth of my capacity to hold space for healing so that we can all make our most meaningful, joyful contributions in connection with one another.
Wendy: I know anxiety, I know overwhelm, I know burnout. There were so many times I didn't have the words for it back then. I just thought that there was something wrong with me, that I was not cut out to practice full time
Chrissie: you're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott.
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I am so excited to share with you my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Wendy Schofer. By way of introduction, I am going to share with you a few of the many facts and trivia about this incredibly diverse, multifaceted woman. So Wendy Schofer is not just an advocate for change, but a pioneer in reshaping how we think about health and wellbeing for ourselves, our families, and our profession. She is a board certified pediatrician, a certified professional coach, a Navy veteran, and yes, a comedian, which means not only are we going to learn a lot together today, but we're also going to laugh a lot too. Wendy has a gift for taking the weightiest topics that we often shy away from and making them approachable, actionable, and enjoyable to discuss and learn about. Through her work as an ambassador for the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation, Wendy advocates for culture shift in health care, where seeking help is not just normalized, but celebrated as a sign of strength. Hear, hear to that. We'll be diving into her insights on how to combat the burnout epidemic a little bit and how we can foster more compassionate, sustainable systems for ourselves and others, including family systems. Speaking of family, Wendy is the founder of Family and Focus where she helps parents navigate the often overwhelming pressures around raising a healthy family amidst a myriad of stressors. Wendy, I am so excited that you're here with me. I cannot wait to jump in and improvise with you today.
Wendy: This is so awesome to be here with you. Um, just the opportunity to geek out, to improvise, to have a dance party, like all the different things. So such a true pleasure to be here.
Chrissie: Yes. We kicked off our recording today with a dance party to Pink's Let's Get This Party Started. So that's what kind of fun we're having up in here today. Y'all. Um, Wendy is one of the most authentic people I know. I remember meeting you for the first time at the Physician Coaching Summit in 2022 and just had the best time right away in your presence. So I really appreciate that that is the kind of friend and colleague you are. And so it's only natural that you would be here with me on the solving for joy podcast. So I'm excited for you to talk about some of your favorite ways lately that you solve for joy. Um, and yeah, let's start with some of your favorite solving for joy. approaches these days, Wendy.
Wendy: You know, like I was telling you beforehand, like there's so much that I have no idea where this is going to go today. And as soon as you said, how are you solving for joy right now? I'm like silence. Absolute silence. It's like a magic ingredient right now amidst all of the things that I'm like, I just need some quiet time right now. And how much joy comes from that. You laugh, but it's, it's really something that I think it's like one of the magic ingredients for me right now. Um, Really silence and going out. Uh, we were also joking ahead of time about my dogs barking in the background, but they are my best friends. They are my greatest reminders that it is always a time for a walk. And it's really a combination of those, you know, with getting out, airing out. Finding those quiet places and that's truly as someone that's a pretty loud person and you know, loves comedy Loves joking around. I love silence. That is actually a key ingredient for my joy right now
Chrissie: I love that silence comes up first because we don't always need to add something in to find joy we actually often need to lean into the negative spaces of our lives and find that diastole, that little bit of, uh, respite in our day, week, year.
Wendy: It's such a big change because, you know, that's so not the way that I was running for years and years and years. I'm always feeling like I had to, you know, prove my worth and, you know, go out and do more and stuff more into the day and, you know, that included, you know, having to speak up more and go out and do more. And now I'm like, no, no, no, just, I need some silence and how soothing and, I don't know, rejuvenating that is now.
Chrissie: Yes. And so much of us need extra silence around the hubbub of the holiday season also, right?
Wendy: Well, sure seems like you can't go anywhere without having like Mariah Carey piped into your head around here. So yes, please, some extra silence, please. I mean, I, whatever happened to silent nights? Like seriously, what? Like truly not, not the music, not the song. No, no, not
Chrissie: that kind of songs. I learned on the piano. Oh my gosh. So funny. Um, I would love to hear about how joyful it is for you helping families with Family and Focus and I'm just excited for you to share some of your most prized takeaways, your kernels of wisdom that you see just light people up with aha moments, the parents that come to you with struggles around raising a healthy family in all the ways,
Wendy: in all of the ways. Yeah. You know, so I always talk about with family and focus, it really comes back to Um, it's based in my own personal values and having the value of connection of really like trying to, to create connections, relationships, um, really being able to help myself, my family help parents, you know, with creating relationships, um, within their own family and talking so much about relationships with food and body, but most importantly with their children. And, you know, that's really where things have evolved over the past couple of years with family and focus. And I think that's really that aha, because the connection is kind of like the, the ground floor. It's the foundation of everything that we do within family and focus, even though there's so many different like programmatic arms, if you will, um, working with parents who are struggling, you know with how do I help my child with their weight, helping parents that are dealing with mental health struggles, um, in the home for themselves, as well as, as well as for their children, as well as helping parents who are just stressed.
And, you know, amidst all of the things that are going on, the things that, you know, the stressors from work, from their own relationships. And then on top of that with, you know, raising their children, I always come back to connection. Connecting with, you know, what's important to you, connecting with, you know, the relationships, uh, that you have that again, you know, who is it that you want to connect with more strongly and how does that contribute to your health, to your family members, you know, and their health. And so it keeps on coming back to connection. Which, you know, I got to tell you, there's been lots of folks that are like, so I'm sorry, you're, you're working around weight and eating habits and you're focusing on connection. And I'm like, and you're not, you're not? Like, you're completely missing it. That's the whole thing that's different here. Because when we're just focusing on what are you eating? How much are you eating? Oh, that's emotional eating. And just like labeling everything and saying, well, that's a problem. It needs to be fixed. You're totally missing the connection. And that's where it's like all turning into this like pushback when we're talking with kids about it, you know, the food fights and, you know, all of the, the challenges that we're facing with our traditional approach, because we're not focusing on let's create the connection first. Let's work together and then we can take those steps together.
Chrissie: Yes, there's such a groundswell of like Yes energy as I hear that and, um, I'm thinking about, you know, connection with my own child and how she gets kind of a sparkle in her eye when I tell her like, oh I would do the same thing if I were you. Like, I too would want to raid the marshmallows every afternoon. . That is absolutely what I would do. Yes, it's like, oh, I feel seen. I feel accompanied. I feel sort of attuned to not really interested in all the reasons why it's not a good idea. I'm just responding to this urge in my body.
Wendy: Uh, those words, I feel seen, I mean, isn't that what everybody's looking for, you know, to be seen and valued and understood and, oh my goodness. So many of the things that we've been taught in parenting are about, you know, trying to guide and change what our kids are doing, not about understanding and connecting and kind of seeing, well, why is it that this is, of course, how they're approaching and what they're doing. Like, of course, that totally makes sense. And seeing, seeing them as being whole and understandable. And, you know, that, of course, it makes sense. Of course, I would do that too. Marshmallows are divine, by the way. They were designed that way. Yes.
Chrissie: That's right.They You're like human, human bait, marshmallows. Funny. How many humans would like actually get hooked if you were fishing for humans with marshmallows?
Wendy: I mean, the marshmallow, I've got a mental image that is not working right now with marshmallows. Yeah. Anyway. So that marshmallow test. So yes, there are psychological studies that have been done with children all based in marshmallows. Go figure. Because you know, they weren't doing it with broccoli for a reason.
Chrissie: Yes. Isa and I like to pretend that there's a parallel world in which broccoli is the, uh, you know less nutritious choice and candy and chocolate and marshmallows are the more nutritious choice. And in that world, I would be like, eat your marshmallows. No, you can't have any broccoli until you finish your chocolate
Wendy: Ooh. And we
Chrissie: laugh and laugh and laugh. , I
Wendy: was gonna say, this sounds like a story that needs to be written and told and shared. I cannot wait to see the, uh, the illustrations for it.
Chrissie: so funny. Um. I know that you get a lot of joy out of talking about feelings. This is one of the things that I know about you on background lady. True.
Wendy: Indeed. Oh man. You know, it's funny, like so many people shy away from it.
Chrissie: They do. They've been told it's really scary stuff, but Wendy, I have a spark of joy when I see you talking about your feelings wheel in all the different ways that you introduce people to it. So I would love to hear about how enjoy your feelings wheel. And what, what do you do when you introduced people to it?
Wendy: Oh, I love this. Okay. So, um, I geek out a lot about emotions. Um, like a lot. So it's kind of one of those things that I recognize very early on in, um, my work. Well, you know, even starting off with, the work that I was doing clinically in the office, there was so much that was coming up. It was kind of like unspoken. Um, parents were, you know, really kind of struggling with how do I help my child, you know, or talking about growth. We're talking about nutrition and I just feel like I'm failing all the time. And I recognized as I was talking with them, like, by the way, you're totally not failing here. Like your kid is doing great. They just happen to be growing at a particular place on the growth curve, but it was that part that kept on coming up, failing, I'm failing, I'm failing. And I was like, what is this? And the more that I got into that, I was like, just kind of digging a little bit deeper. I was like this feeling of failing. Parents are carrying this around with them all the time, and how is that impacting how they're able to work with their kids, the way that they are, you know, preparing meals, the way that they are, um, trying to, you know, get their kids to engage with all these different activities? And I was like, there's this emotional kind of environment. occurring at home that we're not really understanding. And so I was diving into that more because I was like, you know what? I haven't been taught a whole lot about this in all of my training, you know, doing developmental pediatrics, doing, you know, rotations, and so much about mental health and psychiatry and psychopharmacology. Not once did I ever understand or hear about emotions, like what it is that emotions are actually doing. Not about like the disorders, but just like, What the heck are these emotions? What is this? We, we don't talk about it, but we all have them and they're always operating the background.
And so I was just like, I'm going to dive into this a little bit more. Let me find out more about emotions. And then at the same time I was working in the improv studio. Oh my goodness. So in improv, we're learning all sorts of different roles about, you know, how do you create a scene? How do you create a character? What makes, you know, a good relationship on stage? And I kept on hearing the theme. I'm like, it's emotions. You know, like you come into a scene, you can lead with an emotion. When you're building relationships, what is it that you're feeling here? How can you actually express that with someone else and share so that the audience doesn't have to guess what it is that you're feeling? Like, just say, you know, I'm disappointed. And then why and how that makes for really good character development. And I was like, well, it actually makes it really kind of easy for us that are characters off stage too, like how it is that we can understand and connect so much more with the people that we're working with.
And so I started playing with it. I started playing with emotions. One of the games that we play in improv is a next choice, new choice, excuse me. You can say it any which way again, make up the rules as you go. New choice is the game where you're just like in a scene and someone offstage hits a bell wherever you are in the scene. And whatever it is that you had just said or done, you have to come up with a new choice. And so I started playing this with emotions. Like you come into a scene and you're like, I'm really angry. And they're like, ding, new choice. I'm really sad. Ding, new choice. I'm really, really, really excited. And then you would just have to keep on going with it. And so I started playing with that and taking it off stage as well.
And that's part of where the emotions, you know, wheel came from, I call it the all feelings are welcome. Um, wheel, because that's just what I'm creating right now. And, uh, I started taking it to health fairs where, you know, like how you have the big it's off camera right now, but you know, like the big spin to win wheels. And I just created each one of the sections is an emotion. Um, and all the kids come up and they want to spin it. They want to do it like the whole price is right, like full body spin, but they're like, what do I win? Oh, exactly. You know it. And they're like, well, what do I win? I'm like, well, you win some insight, hon, you totally get to play with this, but we start playing with the different emotions. I've got a number of different games that we play and kids just light up about it. I tend to ask them what's their favorite food. Because of course, we can all talk about food. We can all talk about food. And then, how is it that they can feel whatever emotion they just spun when they have this platter of whatever their food is?
And it's very interesting to see what comes up because all I'm looking for is to, you know, kind of elicit, what is the perspective? What is it that they're focusing on? What is maybe the memory that they have or something that they're anticipating? This is all the different places that emotions come from and we're just playing with it. They're just telling me a story, but that's the thing. That's the connection between the story that we're telling and our emotions. They are playing with cognitive behavioral structures, cognitive behavioral therapy, if you're using it in that way, but it's the cognitive behavioral connections for doing it out at community events. It is so amazing, which, you know, is why I was also, you know, creating the games for families to play at home. Because parents are like, you just got my kid talking about feelings and they don't do feelings. I'm like, I just got you talking about feelings too,
Chrissie: and you might not do feelings either. Tell us a story or an example of one of those kids and sort of the, a feeling food combo, um, that feels like that was really instructive, that was exciting.
Wendy: I got to tell you, when you go to the story, it's not so much the feeling food ones. Um, the, the example that really works for me, or that really stands out to me is I use an example with, um, after we play with the food stuff, when I have kids that are somewhere between around fourth grade and around eighth grade, somewhere in that, you know, age range. I said, let's play a different game here. I said, Let's imagine that somebody says to me, I don't like your blue hair. I'm like, how do you think I would feel? And so they look at the wheel and they're like, well, you'll feel sad or disappointed. I'm like, why? And they're like, well, because you want them to like your hair because they don't like it and, you know, that's disappointing. And you just did it and you wanted to be like, Oh, nice. And everything like, okay, awesome. I'm like, what else is possible? Kind of ring that out a little bit. And I said, how could I feel excited when they say that they don't like my blue hair? And I'll be out of them mouths of babes. They're like, Well, you like it. You did it. I'm like, Oh, interesting. So what's the difference between feeling sad or feeling excited when they're saying they don't like it? They're like, well, are you focusing on what they're saying or what you like? I'm like, interesting. Those are the moments where parents really, really, really see it. And they're like, hold on a minute. My kid's been experiencing bullying. And now you've got them, you know, thinking about how maybe it's not someone else's words, but what they actually think about themselves.
Chrissie: And you did it without lecturing or telling them what to do or doing a didactic. You really sort of backed them into this realization and insight with some gentle, playful techniques.
Wendy: Well, and to be honest with you, the food, the food examples are just kind of like, Oh, I'm going to use the, they're an appetizer. It's just an entry point for us to, okay. Sometimes it wins, sometimes it doesn't, but you know, it's just, it's an entry point because everybody will tell you what their favorite food is. But if you start coming in with, you know, different stuff about blue hair and they're like, hold on, there's no blue hair around here. What's going on? What are you trying to do with me? And so we're just trying to create a space that they recognize, Oh, hold on. We're just playing here. We're just messing around a little bit. And so that is inviting a place for them to play. For some folks, they would describe that as a safe space. That's for them to decide. I'm just inviting a place to play. And when they're interested in playing, we can go so much further.
Chrissie: That is so beautiful. And we love it.
Wendy: It is, it is so amazing. I mean, just being able to have these conversations. And I think that you were mentioning earlier, there was something I think in the, in the bio about the vulnerability. I mean, it's something where I have no problems, you know, being able to say to folks, you know, we're all struggling with all sorts of different emotions. We all have them. I was like, I know all about anxiety. I know all about overwhelm because I know them. I experienced them. And everybody's like, what? You're doing this? I'm like, I'm not in some kind of a place where that doesn't exist anymore. There is no such thing. It, you know, talking about, you know, the wheel of emotions, I have all the different colors. I said, you can't go in and just. surgically remove an emotion. You can't say, well, we're going to toss this one out. It's like going in and trying to extract one of the colors of the rainbow. You can't do it. The rainbow is, you know what it is because it has such a wide variety of colors. That's the thing about our emotional experience. If you don't experience the range of emotions, If you try to like block some off, you don't get to fully experience others. You're like, if you don't understand, you know, what it's like to have disappointment or sadness or grief, do you really know what joy and happiness really are?
Chrissie: Oh, there's so much more deeply understood when they are in relief to those that are their opposites. I did think about that as a safe space, this play space that you create and invite them into. And I really appreciate how you clearly and immediately, you know, designated that for them to decide because that is a trauma informed approach. Nobody knows what's safe for anybody else. But, um, for many people, starting with a question like what's your favorite food is an inviting question. It is a generative, creative prompt. Most people will not say all but most of us have some pleasure continuum related to food or a memory of pleasure related to food. You're not asking them what their least favorite food is, right? You're not asking for their yuck. You're asking for their yum. And I can just imagine their, their eyes sort of dancing with like all the things that they're going to list off to you that they love to eat.
Wendy: That's really, it's really fascinating looking at the response that many are often like the kids are kind of like, well, do I dare say it? Yes. Am I naughty? Right. Yeah. Like, am I going to get schooled on something? Like, am I allowed to really say what it is? Um, this is something where we're at a health fair. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on.
Chrissie: Are we about to get the rainbow talk? The
Wendy: rainbow talk. Oh, the whole shebang. And uh, it's funny. I had one child, uh, this past weekend that came up and he said that his favorite food was noto. And I thought. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I, my, my ears are funny. I'm like nachos. And he's like, noto. And his grandma is over his shoulder going, it is the nastiest, most disgusting fermented soybean stuff ever. I'm like, okay, well, we know how you feel.
Chrissie: He loves it.
Wendy: He absolutely loves it and so as I'm talking with him about it, she's like piping in in the background. I'm like, oh, this is a tough crowd. Okay, let's, let's work around. We know about your emotions, grandma. We know all about your emotions with the noto. But, you know, it, it's funny because, you know, we're all in this environment and kids are looking for, you know, what's acceptable here. Can I really be myself? Can I let you really know what it is that I like, what I dislike, or are we all just looking for what's the right answer?
Chrissie: Yeah. Gosh. Am I looking for acceptance or to be seen in my own, self. Is it okay to be myself? Will you still accept me if I share my truth with you?
Wendy: Well, and how often when I'm playing the game, I have to remind folks, there's no right answer. There is no wrong answer here. We're just telling stories. We're just seeing like, how is it possible that you could feel This way. And they go completely blank because they're not used to that question. How is it possible? Like, just try it on or always looking for what's the right answer. Like there is none, absolutely no right answer. We're just painting a picture, writing a story, make believe whatever, you know, words work for you. We're just playing. We're just playing.
Chrissie: So good. Um, I am curious if, uh, you have some, some stories that might pertain to how you got here, how you got to the evolving clarity of founding family and focus and, uh, joyfully doing this work. Um, because I imagine that this was not where you thought you were going to end up when you entered medical training and maybe it was, but I'm not where I thought I would be. So how did you find yourself here, Wendy?
Wendy: You know, the, the only word that's going through my head right now is a whole lot of pain, a whole lot of pain
Chrissie: sometimes when solving for joy was hard, maybe,
Wendy: Oh, gosh, yeah, because, you know, it's funny how, Oh my gosh, how many times I've had this conversation with my kids that they think that, you know, somehow dad and I just arrived at this spot. It was preordained and everything was just so nice and linear and beautiful. And they're here having like existential crises in high school. Like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? How am I going to do this? I'm like, you just start doing it. You don't know what you like. You don't know what you don't like until you start doing it. And they're like, how do you know that? You're just a doctor. Thank you very much for reminding me. I'm just a doctor. I was like, do you know how many times I have messed up or I've started going down a route and I was like, this is not for me. This is not it, but it's because I was doing it that I found out that it wasn't for me.
And, you know, there are so many stories along the way, but I think that a a large portion of what got me here is thinking that what I was doing was not working. And so I'm going back to like early in my career, um, oh my gosh, you know, it's funny how I say I, I know anxiety, I know overwhelm, I know burnout. Okay. Very well. Um, Because there were so many times I didn't have the words for it back then. I just thought that there was something wrong with me, that I was not cut out to practice, um, full time, that I was not, you know, able to. Keep my stuff together to be able to be a good mom and a good doctor and good military officer. And you know, all the things I thought it was failing at all of it. And so, whoo, um, after I got off of active duty, I started, taking a little bit of a wandering road and took a sabbatical for a brief couple of months and I thought that it was just going to be to hang out with my child, like for My husband was in a fellowship for one year. I'm like, I'm not going to start up a practice just to, you know, move again. So, all right, I'm going to take some time off and started hiking, started doing yoga, just hanging out with my son until he's like, mommy, you need to go back to work. I want to go to school. Thank you very much.
Chrissie: You are released.
Wendy: I'm failing at this too. Okay, doggone it kid. I did this for you, and now I'm failing at this. But All along the way, I kept on finding, like, what are those things that bring me joy? And I didn't have the words for it back then I'm looking back now at how I'm finding that there were so many more aspects of who I am and what I'm doing in this world that are beyond the four office walls and integrating all of that. So, you know, with so much with movement and nutrition and like, it's all the different ways that I was connecting to all of me, the whole person.
Chrissie: Yes.
Wendy: And I was like, Oh, so when I was actually doing some research for, uh, I was a leader in a local nonprofit, um, trying to bring a diabetes prevention program into our community for, children. And I was doing research and that was when I discovered lifestyle medicine. And, um, with the big L, big M, you know, the movement of lifestyle medicine, I'm like, this is a thing. I'm like, this is what I've been doing. This is totally what I've been doing. They're like, let's talk about using nutrition and movement and sleep and social connection. I'm like, that's what I've been doing. Hold on. This is a thing. Like, I found my people. I found my people. I'm no longer the weird one here that's trying to look at health outside of the medical office. There are other people that are doing that. And it's just like one of those moments where I'm like, I've been on this, I've been on this journey and how I'm seeing, okay, there are also like minded people. So that is really helpful.
Chrissie: Yeah.
Wendy: To actually find like minded people and people that are going to continue to help me push this. And it just keeps on evolving. It keeps on evolving. And so that was when I was also bringing in so much more of the conversation about psychology. Cause it had been missing for me. It had been missing, you know, in the struggles that I was having with my own family, because, you know, I'm not coming in as the expert saying, Oh yes, this is what you should do for your family. I'm like, yeah, I've been struggling too. I've been struggling and with all the friction, all the, you know, pushback finding, you know, the sneaking the food and the wrappers under the bed. Like, yeah, we're struggling here too. What's missing? Like, ah, connection, psychology, looking at the whole person. Not just coming in and writing the prescription. This is what you should eat, what you should, you know, how you should move and peace out. I'll see you in three to six months. That's not working.
Chrissie: Information has not been the, uh, the pivotal factor for a long, long time for a whole lot of behavior science.
Wendy: You know, I keep on hearing that, that families need more education. I'm like, it's not the education. It's not the education. It's support, it's connection, and it's addressing all the obstacles for why the education doesn't fit in our unique lives. We don't need more. Oh my goodness. I'm going to have more music in my head. We don't need more education. We don't need more education. It's the application.
Chrissie: Yes. It is so good to find your people, and it is so important to lean into how do I impact the real life? How do I center this patient's experience? Because most of their life is not about being in this visit. Most of their life is real, real different and has really different challenges. Really different variables. So what I hear you say is that you, um, you took some time off and you found yourself, you connected more holistically with yourself and you found your people, that those are ways that you kind of found yourself to this path.
Wendy: I, I'm going to say yes. And there's my improv coming out
Chrissie: as we do in improv and in coaching.
Wendy: Yes. And it wasn't a quick like snap and you know, during those few months off, no, no, no. I'm talking about over the course of years, I've been rediscovering myself over the course of years. And it's so funny when I get little messages from my mom and she's like, this is just like you were when you were a little girl. I don't know what this accent is that I'm putting on for my mom right now, but like, this is all you, this is all you like embracing your joy. I always used to get yelled at for being the loudest, most rambunctious kid that everybody was always like, shh, shh, shh, and it got squashed out of me over the course of years and education and socialization. And she's like, you're bringing that back.
Chrissie: That is such incredible affirmation of this beautiful, sacred work of uncovering your authenticity. I was teasing earlier. I said, you have a PhD in authenticity, but it really is one of the things that shines so brightly through you and is so enjoyable. And I think, helps people feel at ease in venturing into some of their own authenticity. I really love that your mom's reflecting that back to you. That's so incredible.
Wendy: So it's funny. She had gotten for me a t shirt a number of years ago. It's probably like 10 plus years ago for Christmas. And it just says, own your crazy. And when I first got it, I'm like, what the heck? She's calling me crazy. Like, what is this? I'm like, thanks mom. I put it aside. I then, of course, as all things happen, we apparently gift silly t shirts in my house. Cause this is not the only t shirt story that I have, but I grabbed it later on. I'm like, oh my god, mom sees me. Oh my god. She totally gets me. Own your crazy. Like, yes, that's exactly what it is. And this is, you know, as I'm like, okay, how can I be more me? Like, how can I own my crazy? She totally gets it. We had an exchange about that earlier today. I'm like, this is an own your crazy moment. She's like, yep. Yes, it is. Oh, it, you know, sometimes we just need those people in our lives to be able to just keep on reflecting it back, reflecting it back. Our magic, who we really are, just so that we can see the magic of it.
Chrissie: Yeah. I mean, I'm glad you said magic because it is when you own your crazy, you own your magic, right? And when those people can really see you, so good. Wendy, what do you experience in this work as some of the biggest barriers to connection and family and how do you, how do you see people overcome them?
Wendy: That's a great question. Um, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that there's such a thread kind of running through our society about how you identify a problem and you need to just go in and fix it. And again, so much of my work has been around weight, around eating habits, and parents desperately want to help their kids. And there's so, such a, um, kind of thread of like, I just need somebody that's going to go and change this, change their eating habits, change, you know get them to stop gaining weight so that I know that they're healthy, so that I know that they're on a good path. And I think that there's very good intentions with parents that are saying, I just need you to fix my kid.
And unfortunately, that's not the way it works. That's the way that we've been approaching this in the traditional medical model. You know, where for years I was like, okay, this is how you fix it. I'm writing out the plan, how, how you eat, how you move. And I'm like, that's just bringing in more shame. You know, shame is the emotion where, you know, kids are thinking, you know, now I've got another song in my head, Taylor Swift. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Okay. You're welcome. Now you've got it in your head.
Chrissie: We're going to make a whole playlist for this episode. Y'all got pink Floyd and Taylor Swift, a little bit of pink and there's going to be more.
Wendy: So but that's the thing that, you know, as kids are being referred off to the endocrinologist and, you know, the sports, uh, whatever the physiotherapist and, to the nutritionist and to the counselors, everything it's like to go fix a problem. And so there's a disconnection that's happening there because we're basically telling kids you need to change and so not feeling seen, not being understood, not understanding why are things the way they are right now. And that's just so much of our our culture, that's so much of, you know, the medical culture that we have around the evaluation, um, of growth and weight and obesity and overweight, whichever form we want to look at here, but we're just looking at what's the problem, how do we fix it?
And that fix is actually not helping. And so when we start looking at how can we connect first interpersonally. Everybody's like, I don't know how to do that. I had a very respected physician, um, pediatrician that I was doing a, uh, a presentation about emotions and why emotions matter and the role of emotional health in pediatric weight management. And he's like, this sounds awesome. I don't have time for this. I don't have time to talk about emotions in the office because we all think that it's like going to open up Pandora's box. If I just like start open, it's like, Oh, good God, I'm never getting out of this office.
Chrissie: And also I don't want to derail your story at all, but like, that's a thought that you're broadcasting as a circumstance or the news, right? Like that's, that's his thought. I don't have time. It does not make it true. It does not make it accurate.
Wendy: Oh, it's just showing how he's uncomfortable with it in the first place. And of course, our go to is, I don't have time for this and I'm uncomfortable. I don't have the skills. I don't have the practice. I don't have the tools, the resources, the support, whatever it may be. And now I'm taking on more. And so it's really such a, there's so many layers to all of this, but the thing is that we don't have the time to not engage with emotions to understand, like even the emotion of like, what is it that you're experiencing that you're thinking that you don't have the time to do this. And you know, I'm not going all metal with him, but just understands where we're coming from.
Chrissie: That was my thought was like, the truth is, it means I don't know how to stay regulated when time is short, or I don't know how to stay regulated when I bring emotions up with my patient and their families, there's a bit of like, I don't know how to do that. And the shortcut in my brain is I don't have time to do that.
Wendy: Yeah. And I think there's, One more aspect that's coming in as we're talking more and more about trauma informed care. I think that unfortunately what's happening is some folks are getting the message that they're like, and then I can't talk about emotions because I don't have the tools. I don't have the resources. I don't have the training. I can't do any of this. Which is all complete lies, like complete lies. That's where we need more education about how we can talk and connect with our emotions, with the emotional experience, lead with it ourselves, coming back to vulnerability and authenticity. And how that welcomes others to be able to join in the conversation.
Chrissie: Yes. And it brings it back to connection too, right? Like if we are just thinking about trauma, we know that connection mitigates trauma, right? And my addition is that presence is a prerequisite to connection, but truly we can only be present when we are connected authentically with ourselves. We can't offer what we don't have. Right? Right.
Right.
Wendy: Which as I think about that and thinking about, you know, some of us that are particularly seasoned physicians, those are things that are completely foreign to our experience, our practice, our training. And so, yeah. We've got new skills to learn, we've got new languages to learn around this. And so that's where, you know, I speak so much about the language of coaching. Um, cause you know, how many times I'm like, yeah, I totally take this into the office, you know, because it's just speaking another language and it's introducing it to, you know, to my staff, to my, to my families. But it's the same thing with emotions, having the um, the fluency, you know, be able to speak the language of emotions. It's not some kind of like, you know, magic with it. It's just having a little bit more literacy, a little bit more fluency in this language and how we can connect so much more when we do that.
Chrissie: And, you know, we all have a commitment to lifelong learning in medicine, right? But we don't always think about how that lifelong commitment to learning in medicine might expand in a direction not just toward the journals and the latest randomized clinical trials and the newest guidelines and policy statements from our professional organizations, right? It might be that our lifelong learning includes emotional fluency. It includes questioning the things that we were spoon fed as trainees 20 some odd years ago. Right? And going, Oh, actually I have more capacity in this area than I realized. And my patients and my community need the full breadth of my capacity to hold space for healing so that we can all make our most meaningful, joyful contributions in connection with one another.
Wendy: Okay. I'm going to totally admit I, I went there when we were talking about the commitment to lifelong learning. I was like, you know, all these things that I've been learning and putting together, not a single one of those have I gotten MOC credit for or anybody's saying, Oh, look at that because it's all self directed. It's looking at what is it that is meaningful for me, not because I'm checking a box in order for somebody to say, okay, you did it. You're good for the next 10 years.
Chrissie: Right. And fill in the blank about how it's going to change your practice. Well, we could do that.
Wendy: Oh my goodness. So over all that baloney. But like, it's funny as I think about all the things that it's like the obligatory, like lifelong learning, you must do this. Like, no, this is the real deal. This is the real deal and everything that I, I've been working on and creating, you know, family and focus and beyond. Like, that's all true lifelong learning, adult learning.
Chrissie: And it's true integration also, right? It's got spillover. It applies to your relationship, to your spouse, to your adult children.
Wendy: Oh, we're all benefiting around.
Chrissie: I mean, I have no doubt.
Wendy: Absolutely. And isn't that awesome? Like, you know what? This true adult learning here, it applies everywhere. That's it.
Chrissie: That's awesome.
Wendy: You're welcome. Mic drop. I'm sure you've heard this story before, but when I first started on this journey with, uh, with, you know, coaching, um, The most unbelievable thing happened. I thought I was going in to, you know, address my concerns about burnout. And I started seeing my relationship with my mother in law changing. And I was like, what happened here? What has happened? Because I've known her for 25 years and we all know that, you know, the dear sweet mother in laws in our lives are not changing. They are not changing. They are who they are. I was like, I'm changing, hold on a minute. Like this was just like mind blowing to me. And so I'm thinking I'm dealing with this over here. And meanwhile, my relationships are changing because it's me. It's me changing.
Chrissie: What witchcraft is this?
Wendy: Exactly! I'm like, okay, hold on. I got the power. There's another song for you. Got the power. Okay. I want Witchcraft CME. Oh my goodness. Oh, we can talk about so much more of that. Um, yes. I want to know who's going to credit that. Okay. Anyway. Um, yes, but you know, isn't that coming back to, you know, seeing the need, meeting the need that's adult education.
Chrissie: Yes. Yes. And coaching spaces are like the most potent adult education I can imagine right now. From the inside. I think that is, um, that's what I hear over and over again from clients, from people who've been through cohorts of 12 by 12. And I just, yeah, we need more meaningful adult education spaces like this. I'm so glad to be part of that movement and to be arm in arm with folks like you.
Wendy: Oh my goodness. Right there with you right there with you. I mean, I think that that's, as I remember, you know, from when we first met. It was because we were in a space where we could be vulnerable. That's what I remember about our first meeting that it was just like, this is me. It's dirty. It's dirty. There's all sorts of funkiness going on here. It's complex. And you and I were like, you're my people. It was just, Yeah, like, Oh my gosh, like, let's be vulnerable. Let's just be real. And it was like, Oh, like a breath of fresh air. This is who we are and we're totally digging each other. Like, because we're hungry for this. We're hungry for that authenticity and it brings people together. That's connection.
Chrissie: That is connection and connection my friends, is a real solid way to solve for joy. Am I right?
Wendy: Oh, Oh, I love it. I love it. Full circle right there.
Chrissie: Full circle. I could talk your ear off for days Wendy. Um, as we get close to closing though, um, Yeah tell me, if you can, about a variable that you thought was a constant. Something related to your own mental math of solving for joy that you thought was a rule. You thought had to be a certain kind of way. And then at some point you discovered, Oh, I can actually change that up and this equation works better.
Wendy: So the first thing that comes to my mind is, uh, actually with my marriage and what, what A happy marriage looks like. What people do when they're married and they signal, we are good. We are good. We are together. We are strong. And, um, I challenge everyone right now to think about like, what does that look like to you? And so. Gosh, just over a year ago my husband got notified for, you know, he's, he's still active duty in the Navy. So I, I retired, five years ago, by the way, just doing high fives five years ago. Oh my gosh. It's been so long. Anyway, this man keeps on going. Um, so he is still active duty and got notified about his next duty station. And we thought that it was going to be, in North Carolina, which okay, cool. We'll make this work. Um, no, it's on the other side of the earth. Um, so he is stationed in Guam and, uh, for those that are as geographically challenged as I am, it's a four hour flight from Tokyo to get to Guam. So it is in the middle of the very far Western Pacific, but anyway, so I was trying to figure out what that looks like. How is it? Cause we always said when our kids, you know, graduated from high school, they're out of the house. We will go anywhere. As long as we're together, that's always been our thing.
And I was like, this does not work that it does not math here. My best friend who you saw earlier, uh, before we started recording is a 13 year old golden retriever. Um, he might be a naughty dog, but he is my best friend. And my husband knew that when he got these orders, he's like, it's either going to be me or the dog. It's like, and I know who's winning. And so I was like, I. I can't move there for so many different reasons, the dog and family and professional stuff. It just doesn't work, but our marriage does. And so what I've really had the opportunity to do over the last year is to be able to say, um, this isn't actually about our marriage. This is about me. And that's not a problem. Like this is about me being in the right place and space for me. Because I could totally be in Guam and I would be so freaking miserable it is not even funny.
Okay. Everybody's like, Oh, you're going to paradise. I'm like, you don't understand what my paradise looks like. It is not being on a beach and getting all sunburned and sand and all the different places. That is not my idea of paradise. And so what I thought that I needed to do as a good wife, I was like, you know, I, I can't do that. That does not work. And, uh, we actually went to a leadership conference, as part of his training to take command and everybody's like, what is your family plan? I'm like, actually, this is his plan. This is my plan. And when we are both doing what makes each of us happy and addressing our own needs, our marriage needs are met.
How about that? And the logistics are just a circumstance, right? I mean, I'm going to tell you a little secret. I can go and visit. I mean, and I did totally tell him I will come and visit, but, um, you're the one that accepted the orders. I'm accepting business class tickets, by the way. That is some next level. I'll come and visit you, but I'm not doing it in economy.
Chrissie: Next level mind management there, right there.
Wendy: Yeah. So, I mean, I think coming back to your question, I like, it's just, you know, what does it need to look like? And then what does it really look like for me? And I think that that's where I get to see that all the different pressures and you know, at what everybody's put out there, I'm like, ah, it just doesn't fit for me right now. And even like, I just noticed how I said that right now, that doesn't work right now. It's funny. Cause he's already talking about what, what's he going to be doing at the two year mark? Where is he going next? And I said, you will not be in Asia, because you need to come back here. We need to be together. But on, on this side of the dateline, please, we got to, we got to move it back here a little bit more east. We, we, there are different places that we can work with, but no, that just doesn't work for us. So now we need to talk to the Navy about that.
Chrissie: That is not in the sphere of control, but perhaps the sphere of influence. Oh my gosh. What an amazing example of mind management and thinking of something that was clearly I mean, most of us would believe that it's a constant, you know, that a marriage is rooted in the same zip code most of the time, right? Same area code, at least.
Wendy: I insist our marriage is stronger right now because we are doing what each of us needs, wants, like what each of us is called to do.
Chrissie: Um, that conviction is so powerful. It's palpable. I believe you and I affirm and celebrate that wisdom and, um, self sovereignty. Like this is the experience we are having in our marriage. It's, yeah, Good for you. Good for Joel.
Wendy: Doggone it. We're going to keep on telling him it's good for you, babe. That's right. That's right.
Chrissie: Send, send some extra hugs your way.
Wendy: Yeah, but it's going to be good for him if you say no to Japan, okay? You say no to Japan. No, I will help you with that. So anyway, you can see there's definitely many more conversations behind the scenes and they are just as colorful.
Chrissie: I wouldn't doubt it at all. Wendy, thank you so much for being with us today. It has been such a delight to just have this conversation and share the joy that is you with our listeners. Um, I look forward to many more good times together and I'm so So glad that you are doing this important work in the world.
Wendy: Oh my goodness. And likewise, I mean, this is, this is the thing I am fueled off of surrounding myself by beautiful, beautiful friends that are doing such amazing work. And you know, you're, this is where it comes down to where we're putting our passions into action. Where we're really letting that drive. It's like who we are is just coming out. It's emanating out and doing such wonderful things. And so I see that. I love it. Oh my gosh. It is like so amazing. And I'm going to totally admit as I see what you are doing in the world, it's fueling me too. And so I thank you. And I think that that is, that is the thing about these spaces that we're creating, that we are together and we are amplifying each other. That's not the way I was trained. That's the thing. This is what we're all doing now that we're like changing this. So I think that this is where we're changing medicine. And I'm not just talking about the practice of medicine. We're changing the face. We're changing what that looks like to connect, to heal, all of it.
Chrissie: Like we're changing the resonance. Within medicine, right? We're changing the people of medicine by offering this adult learning, these skills, this insight, this pathway to find your truest passion and then make it your life work. And you can do it inside or outside or adjacent to, or in service of medicine, you can do it in creative and unpredictable ways. In fact, you must do it in creative and sometimes unpredictable ways and let it find you. It can only find you when you're, like, being yourself, right? Oh,
Wendy: I'm, I'm out. I'm hooked on the word unpredictable right now. Cause I'm like, that's what everybody that doesn't understand it.
Chrissie: Yes. Unpredictable. This is all very aligned with roar, uh, which is the 2025 opportunity for 25 physicians to be in a room of recovering, of optimizing, activating, and reigniting. So we can reclaim our joy and agency in medicine so that we can also address questions like, should I stay or should I go now? we have the longest playlist developing here, guys. , I love it. I mean, this was our, this was our outro. We were getting ready to say goodbye, but now we're ramping all the way back up again. Anyway, roar is open for enrollment right now at joypointsolutions. com, and I am more than happy to have conversations with people, we still have some spots left right now, but I am so excited to hold space for 25 physicians who are ready to have these feelings and to, to really get some traction and movement so that They can bring their most creative, meaningful gifts to the world.
Wendy: Oh, I feel that by the way, that's a Katy Perry song, but anyway, just putting that on the list.
Chrissie: So funny. Thank you so much, Wendy, for having this fun with me today. I love you, friend, and I can't wait to squeeze you in person
Wendy: Oh, thank you so much. I am looking forward to that in person hug.
Chrissie: All right, everybody. Thanks for tuning in today.
Please take care of yourselves, take care of someone else, and keep solving for joy.
I want to take a quick moment to acknowledge our incredible team. This podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn, post production and more handled by Alyssa Wilkes, and my steadfast friend and director of operations, Denise Crain. Our theme music is by Denys Kyshchuk cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken and a special appreciation to my loyal champion and number one fan, Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in everyone. May we continue caring for ourselves, caring for others, and may we continue solving for joy. Take care. We'll see you next time.
