Sara: Our reaction in these terrifying times is to withdraw, but we need each other and we need to understand that even when we have vastly different opinions and views and perspectives and ideas, that doesn't mean that we're functioning as separate entities and we have to find a way back to seeing our humanity.
Joaquin: We're all driven by the same values. It's just the external looks really, really, really different. But that spirit's the same.
Corey: Feelings are neither right nor wrong. They're only valid. And we have to get good at recognizing feelings so we can validate them. Um, and then be able to explore them and be curious about them
Chrissie: wherever we are on the political spectrum. The first and most important thing that we can do is register to vote. You will feel better if you align your actions with your beliefs and your vision. You're listening to solving for joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissie Ott. Hello friends, and welcome to our first round table.
of Solving for Joy. I am so pleased to welcome back our podcast guests, Sara Bovitz, Joaquin Lopez, and Corey Thompson today. We're trying something new. We are going to have a round table conversation with the intention of this conversation, contributing and hopefully being of service to our listeners in navigating the turbulent time.
That is the final chapter of the United States election season in 2024, no matter where you fall on the political spectrum, you are probably experiencing a fair amount of uncertainty. You are aware of. The background of divisiveness, um, and perhaps you've noticed some deterioration in our collective systems of care and our collective experience of joy and connection.
So it is my intention to bring this conversation today and ask our guests to speak from their various points of view. intersectionalities about how they see possibilities solving for joy during turbulent and divisive times like this. So thank you all for being with us today. I'm so excited to get started and I'll invite Sara to begin answering, but all of you are welcome to, to address.
Um, There are many people in our country and beyond our country's borders, who are grieving the loss of their own personal safety and security, the loss of their own human rights. I'm aware that just this morning I heard the Taliban has forbidden women to raise their voices or laugh in public. And while that's not at all in my sphere of control or influence, it is in my sphere of concern.
I imagine that the questions of You know, loss of rights or loss of security or loss of whatever it is we hold dear is on the minds of many people, um, as we face this. I'm wondering how, how do you address staying grounded in the face of that level of uncertainty? Um, and what do you think would help our listeners to hear today?
Sara: Well, Chrissie that's such an important question and sort of idea to talk about on a broader level. Because I think that our reaction in these terrifying times is to withdraw and go inside ourselves, because that's the only place that we really are safe. And to my mind, I think that that produces the opposite effect of what we need, because we need each other in these times, but we need to see each other for more than the yard sign that we have.
And we need to understand that even when we have vastly different opinions and views and perspectives and ideas, that doesn't mean that we're functioning as separate entities in this life and on this planet. And we have to find a way back to seeing our humanity. With ourselves, if you don't mind, I'll tell a short story that sort of speaks to that community, um, which happened the last time we were in this circumstance.
So in 2017 or 2018, when the. There was the big migrant influx and the caravans coming up. I have two sons who are Guatemalan. One is LGBTQ. They're both Brown. I'm a white woman. And that complicates our interactions with the world sometimes. And one day we were in Baskin Robbins getting an ice cream treat after school.
My boys were young. They were still in elementary school. And my oldest son had started a project in his school about, um, they had to pick a social cause that they were inspired to contribute to. And he wanted to work with immigrant families. And I was asking him about that. I said, you know, that's, that's great.
tell me more. How did you come to that? And he said, well, mom, I'm Guatemalan. I said, yes, I, I'm aware. He said, when I hear our president talking about my people as rapists and murderers, it hurts. And I figure, excuse me, if I get a little emotional, he said, I figure if it hurts me that much, how much worse it must be for them.
And it makes me want to help them. And I said, Oh, you know, we had a whole conversation about it and we got our ice cream and we moved over and we sat down and shortly afterward, a woman came over and said, I'm sorry, forgive me. I wasn't trying to eavesdrop on your conversation. She was also a white woman.
We're in Portland. Um, and she said, I wasn't trying to eavesdrop on your conversation, but I couldn't help, but over here. And I just have to tell you that that is not how your community feels. I want you to know as another American living in your community, we support you and we do not feel that way. And it, the wave of relief and appreciation that came over me was overwhelming.
Chrissie: I got chills just listening to it.
Sara: Right. It was so powerful and the impact that that had on my two brown children to feel embraced by a random member of their community and supported in this really complicated time was profound and had a lasting impact on them and their worldview. And I tell that story just because those moments that we have where we can see beyond division and find a connection on that human level with each other go well beyond those moments.
Chrissie: Yes, they do. They so surpass those things. Even when we get the message, we're supposed to acknowledge this as some kind of, um, barrier, not just a boundary, a barrier. Um, You know, when you said people often retract, they go inside, I was inspired to think about how, you know, it's very skillful to keep a safe place for ourselves inside, but it's not as skillful to retract all of our connection receptors, right?
It is, it's a skillful to be able to do both to stay with yourself and to In a grounded place on the inside and still have some capacity to reach out across differences and connect because of our inherent interdependence. Our interdependence does not, is not predicated on our political views or identities.
And this brings up a story for me. There was a time in 2019 when I was rescued with my 88 year old mother who was on a walker and a 30 something nephew who was in a wheelchair with a spinal cord injury and my 60 something year old brother who was on oxygen and on hospice for lung disease. The three of them and I, um, and another individual were rescued in an inflatable boat, um, at the front door because there was water up to our knees in the house in Texas.
We were transferred to a pontoon boat, which was happily boating in the middle of the street in their neighborhood. And then to the back of a army truck. So it's, it was the transfer into the army truck. So we had three very mobility impaired individuals for different reasons. And the You know, the folks who were out there in their waiters, pushing the wheelchair, the ramp for my nephew and, you know, supporting my mom, basically carrying her up the ramp for my mom.
Um, I saw these individuals and I was like, I know that, that we are voting differently. You know, it was September. So it was, you know, it was election season. Things were very acute right then. Right. And it brought me to tears, our interdependence and the love and care that these people Brought to us. I was then rescued further by, um, my amazing family members who I could not adore more, who also locate themselves, um, basically 180 degrees from me on the political spectrum.
And I respect their views, right? It does not cause less love. It may cause, um, less understanding or some confusion, but doesn't cause less love.
Sara: That's a beautiful story, Chrissie. I think that speaks to all of it, right? And that it's easy to get distracted by taglines and obnoxious statements and, you know, all Um, but if we can find our way through that to actually see each other again, I think that's how we heal.
Chrissie: And so much heart in your son's response. That is, that is the very heart of compassion, right? To identify, Oh, my suffering is magnified in another, and I am inspired not only to acknowledge that that exists, but to take action. in service of improving that condition. How wonderful to have such a clear view of his innate Yeah.
Sara: Well, the hearts of children, they're not, they're not hardened yet. They're not calloused
Chrissie: yet. May they stay so.
Sara: Yes.
Chrissie: Kind of reminds me to, to think and feel deeply into what's happening for people who are in marginalized communities or they are marginalized due to their intersectionalities and identities. Um, and I'll ask Joaquin. if he would like to start, but I'm, I'm really welcoming conversations from all of us on this. What ways are most effective in your opinion to center our more marginalized voices, to let people know that our, our care is intact, and we want to take action in service of compassion.
Joaquin: Hi, Chrissie. Um, you know, I wish I had a good answer. I don't You know, I think about when I was young, and I was coming to terms or coming to knowing that I was different. But I couldn't put my finger on it. That is such an unconscious experience that the kids on the playground don't know what is happening.
I don't know what's happening. We just know there's difference, right? So I don't know how you intervene that when we're so unconsciously wired to understand our kind. And be aware of our differences in order to survive. I don't know. I don't know. I really don't know.
Chrissie: I think I don't know is a really honest answer, and I wonder is there anybody who, um, I mean, they could have just been an upstander, but they might have just been somebody who was like, I see your difference, and I'm going to stay connected.
Joaquin: I think there's, from my own experience, Who wants to be different? And regardless of how wonderful or how, like, empowered you are for being different, you're still different. The fact that you're an other doesn't go away, regardless of the love that comes your way. So one other can't take that away from me.
I have to come to terms with myself that I'm in this experience of otherness. And that's for me to come to terms with the world has their own experience of that. You know, the other world has their own experience of that, but I have to come to terms with that. And the, the terms that I've come to are that, yeah, I am different and I don't know why.
The end. So be it. What I do know is that everybody gets up in the morning, wipes their butt, brushes their teeth, makes something to eat, right? So they can pay their bills. I know that much, right? And I know that we all do the same things very differently, but I don't think there's actual difference in difference.
Right? Like, we're all doing the same thing. So what are we talking about? And can we just stop it?
Chrissie: Difference is cause for curiosity, right? And it's such a balancing act to acknowledge cause for curiosity without rejecting it. Um, because our, our lower brain centers identify difference as threat. And that's an evolutionary, you know, setting in the animal brain, like not my tribe, possible threat to life.
And we have then used the transitive process or transitive, um, property to apply that, um, I think, errantly to, All kinds of differences. I like how you point to the universal, you know, we all sleep, we all eat, we all get dressed. We all groom ourselves unless we are in a state of, um, extreme. Suffering difficulty challenge, whatever, like we all have innate tendencies to do these things.
Um, Corey, as a therapist, um, we're lucky to have two therapists today, both Joaquin and Corey. Um, and I'll ask you this question, Corey, how, how do you find people in intimate relationships in families, in couples, et cetera, can do their best to stay connected, um, to solve for joy and Um, and perhaps have different experiences of this external circumstance.
Corey: It's a great question. Um, I think in a way it's already been said. I think that the way Sara and Joaquin both said it, there's a, there's this beautiful little thread that's, that's running through there about being aware of what we're in response to, of being open. I think that, um, to go inward. And yet still be accessible to the world around us is a very difficult thing to do, to navigate, to stay balanced.
And I, um, I really loved what I, what I heard and what I took from, from both of your stories was this idea that there is a safety in community. There's the safety in sameness. There's this experience where safety is both good and it's limiting. And I think that also intersects with our desire to be our own person.
And when I think about that intersection and how that plays out then in relationship with others, we start talking about infinite dynamics between people because we're in response to so many things at one time. Um, so I really think that when we think about. the intimacy that lives in our relationships.
It is about being aware. It is about being able to go inside, to know where we are, to know what we're in response to, to know how that intersects with the world around us, but especially how does that intersect with the people we love the most? How does that impact our want for them? Our desire to be with them.
And if we don't have a way to say your question to Joaquin was like, how do we stay grounded? That's hard because we're talking about a world that impacts our nervous system. That challenges us all the time to be able to, it sounds really easy to just stop and take a deep breath and stretch your arms and, and be centered.
Sounds like a lovely place to live, but it's a lot more complicated than that. So I think it starts with awareness and then it comes and then comes the room for curiosity. Curiosity about ourselves, what's resonating, what we're in response to, what's pushing against our values, what's happening for our partners.
And our family and the people we love. And then how can we engage that in a way that's purposeful and meaningful?
Chrissie: Yeah, how do we skillfully engage that or how do we skillfully, um, decide not to engage that because it's not a safe enough Relational space to engage without rupture. Yeah, right. Yeah, that is a real That's a real factor.
You know, there's so much richness in all of that that you just said. And, and I want to, I was snagged a little bit by, you know, when we are in response to so many things and social media amplifies the amplitude, like the volume and the frequency. Um, I mean, it is just like continuously poking the bear of our, Mind of our unbridled parts of our brain, right?
And underneath that is awareness, as you rightly pointed out, awareness of what we are up to awareness of what we're feeling and thinking. And I'm thinking about feeling feelings, right? Like we often find a feeling as a stop sign. When the another truth is that. If we make space for our feelings to exist without our actions always equaling our own feelings, right, we can feel our feelings without exerting them on unsuspecting victims in our family.
Um, it's a good thing. It's a really good thing. It's one of the. One of the fulcrums, uh, that I'm sure that you both work a great deal with in therapy and that Sara and I are also frequently sharing about in the coaching dynamic, um, that when we We increase our awareness to a slightly more metacognitive level.
We can ask what is going on right now in my body. My body's having a feeling. The feeling is rage. Feeling is fear. Feeling is, I feel uncertain about our connection right now. And that makes me want to retreat. You know, the feelings, feelings can be so many things and they can be in response to this overlaid dynamic of, um, our country is split.
The stakes feel high. And people get extraordinarily rigid and certain of their views, and that certainty and rigidity is happily fanned. Those flames are fanned by our media, our polarized media, for the, you know, for the most part.
Corey: It makes me think about this idea of feelings is so important because I feel that feelings are neither right nor wrong.
They're only valid, right? But then we live in a world that tries to help us make sense of those feelings, but to your point, Sometimes a feeling is just a feeling, and we have to get good at recognizing feelings so we can, we can validate them and then be able to explore them and be curious about them.
Chrissie: Feelings are weather systems. We might, we might prefer not to have the rain all the time, right? We might prefer Um, a different weather system, but it's just a weather system. It happened because of reasons, like our feelings happened because of thoughts and beliefs and experiences. Antecedents, as you, uh, or as Joaquin acknowledged in his recent podcast.
Right? These, these weather systems make sense because of antecedent happenings. It doesn't have to dictate our behavior. We can get out the umbrella or we can decide not to.
Sara: Corey, I, what comes to my mind in hearing you reflect on these issues is the idea of curiosity, and I think that that is something that we have lost because it's a very, very A vulnerable place to be, right?
If I'm really good at express and explore and engage in a, in a place of true curiosity about who you are underneath the flags and the signs and, and the talk, right? That, that's a very vulnerable moment. And I think that that's also precious and valuable. And if we can find our way back to actually being curious about each other.
I think that's a step on the path, perhaps.
Chrissie: I love that, Sara. Thank you. So let's talk about social media. Let's talk about doom scrolling for a minute. Um, who here is guilty of finding themselves stationary with their phone in their hand for an unusual amount of time? Scrolling. Oh, we're looking around. We're looking very innocent. No, it's just me, I guess. Okay.
Joaquin: No, Chrissie, I want to say that, um, I turn my phone off at 7 p. m. And then I don't turn it on again until 10 a. m. And I only check it about three or four times a day.
Chrissie: Are you serious?
Joaquin: Just kidding!
Chrissie: Oh my god! I was speechless in awe. Oh my gosh, that is aspirational. For sure.
Um, I think I know that scrolling makes this worse.
Okay.
Right? Like we know that the more we are attuned to the small flat screen in our hands, the more of a hot mess our brain becomes. Like, a little bit overstimulated and scrambled and not really a great place for solving for and connecting to our inner experience of joy. Which I Love defining as meaning alignment and delight. I do think it's a great dopamine hit right like we're getting micro dopamine hits but it's actually making us kind of Immune or numb to life's real dopamine hits like the gorgeous sunset or a hug So, I want to plan ahead. I want to plan ahead for an alternative activity when I catch myself, when I have enough wherewithal, metacognitively, to say, Oh, I just fell down the rabbit hole. What am I going to do instead? Give me ideas, guys. What do you think?
Joaquin: I can share with you, Chrissie, what I do. And, um, when I find myself in it, I will just simply just throw the phone aside. Like, I'll throw it. I'll just have to like get it out of my, cause it's not about making, at that point, it's not about like responding to it.
No, it's like I have to react away from it because it's caught me. So I just kind of throw it, I just kind of throw it to the side and I shake my head and I get myself out of that trance because it puts you in a trance, you know? So I get myself out of that trance and then I, Go to something else that's like actual, that's not a screen, uh, like a book maybe, and that's what kind of snaps me out of it.
Chrissie: Such a good word. It is a trance.
Corey: I love that. I think, um, I think you, you pointed out a really important thing, Chrissie, which is like, it makes it worse. And yet we can't, we can't not look away. Right. Um, but it is, I think it is that awareness. I think for me, I like. Although it doesn't really come to fruition this way, but like in my head, I like that idea of like that 10 minute rule of like, if I'm lost in the doom scroll and I'm suddenly like aware, like what just happened with the last 20 minutes, right?
It's just about do something else. Do anything, go do anything for at least 10 minutes because you'll, you'll, you'll turn your ship into a different direction, right? Even. If it's not really a commitment to full 10 minutes, but to get up, to step outside. Those are things I do to go let my dogs out to even, I try to stay away from screens, but like, even like check a work email or do something like that to, to get my brain to remember that there's a whole world happening around me.
And we probably want to take a minute and not get too lost in the joy because. We want to, we have a need to know, that's why we go to social media.
Chrissie: Yeah. We have an itch to scratch.
Corey: Yes. Yes. We, we get misaligned. I think all the time.
Sara: Um, I am not one to speak to how to get off of social media because I am not, I've never been a big utilizer. I'm an OG X Gen X er. And I kind of missed that curve, but I do know that I am a news junkie. And so I constantly have like NPR on, or I'm reading the New York Times or the Washington Post or the New Yorker, or, you know, all the things within my bubble and my own echo chamber, because I acknowledge that I live in an echo chamber. But I also know that in order to stay grounded, I need quiet time with myself and my mind needs a little bit of peace and the absence of all this constant influx of external stimulus to settle and find itself.
And I, so every morning when I get up, the first thing I do is take my dog out for a walk. And historically what I've done during that time is pop in my AirPods and listen to the news. And I thought to myself, what if I just was quiet during that time. And so I started leaving the AirPods at home. And what that has given me is 30 minutes a day when I'm moving my body, I have nothing in my ears, nothing in front of my face. I'm just walking and observing. And that is my own sort of, you know, In air quotes, mindfulness practice, because it gives the brain a chance to settle and really filter through the thoughts, um, that, you know, it's its job to make thoughts. And so that's just doing its job, but to be able to let them settle so that you can reflect on them and go forward from a perspective of responding to that stimulus, as opposed to reacting to it. I think matters.
Chrissie: Yes, Sara, it is so useful to take a step outside of our own echo chambers from time to time. I really like going on a media fast, um, just having a few days at a time where I am intentional about not ingesting media or having a thought before I turn on the media, where is this coming from? What is the point of view that's being iterated and how could this impact my nervous system?
I love the bottom up approach. Um, so the top down like brain to body is one way like we decide to do something different, but the body to brain connection may actually be more effective where we actually shake, like jump up and down, do a little dance, like, I mean, literally you break the trance with your body. Um, I think that is super helpful.
I also want to bring up how our tendency is to live only in the echo chamber of our own existing beliefs when we're in social media, right? So we have, um, constant exposure to similar content and the algorithm knows our preferences. And therefore, advantages those preferences to keep us scrolling because that makes advertisers advertise, right? And the, uh, other effects are polarization. isolation, uh, decreased exposure to a diversity of perspectives, which if we're not keeping a very close conscious eye on it can impact our ability to empathize with people across difference, right? Like we, like we mentioned earlier, our ability to connect across difference can literally decrease. And then, um, outsized frustration, outsized hostility, outsized social harm, Between people with this difference, and we get into, like, I would never treat somebody this way. I would never expect that person to treat another person this way in real life. I RL right. But somehow in the echo chambers or across these, you know, conversations in Reddit or discord or like, name your space. Things get barbed.
Joaquin: Yeah. I'd like to respond to that. Uh, Chrissie, um, Monica Lewinsky has a documentary called 15 minutes of shame. And in this documentary, she invites these scientists to talk about the research and I'm going to paraphrase the research. And I recommend everybody go watch that documentary.
Um, but basically that they took these fans, soccer fans, football fans, whatever. For us, it's soccer. And, um, they tied these electrodes to their brains and they saw that whenever their team scored, um, they got these dopamine hits. Like they felt really good, right? And then when the opposing team missed a score, they experienced more dopamine, more togetherness, more bond.
So we actually bond with our kind when an other is falling apart or being destroyed. Yeah. So that's in us, which is so weird. And advertisers run with that, right? Because advertising is a scarcity mentality. You need this because your life isn't enough, right? So it's just like fire. And I don't know how to put that out, how to put that out.
Chrissie: I mean, keeping our eye on it, it's the first step, right? Keeping our eye on it, noticing that when we fall down the scrolling hole into our filter bubble where we're trapped in our worldview is externally shaped by what we're shown by the algorithm, right? Like just trying to keep our eye on it, even having conversations like this. You know, even just talking about it brings it more into our consciousness and then we can break the trance more readily, more quickly, hopefully more frequently.
Joaquin: But I think this trance is the thing because when we experience hurt, really deep hurt, and we're not really present. It does put us in a trance, and anytime we don't want to be here, we go into a trance. We kind of, it's like this dance, and, uh, oftentimes that trance, uh, allows us to get through things. Right? And sometimes there's like different levels of trance. And I know myself, I just recently realized I was in this trance where I thought I was broken for all my life. And it just like lifted. So like, now I'm like, wow, what was I doing? You know, dancing this trance of brokenness.
Chrissie: Now I'm thinking about trance music and raves. From the
Joaquin: 90s.
Chrissie: Yes. So let's say that person A has been tranced by a filter bubble and echo chamber on the far left and person B has been entranced by filter bubbles and rabid media on the far right. And let's say they care about each other and they don't want to risk rupture in their relationship. Um, how do you see a healthy way forward for them?
Corey: An idealist way of viewpoint. Um,
Chrissie: sure. We can start with idealism.
Corey: Why not? Let's, let's, let's shoot for the stars. Um, I, I think there was something that, you That stands out in what you were both just saying too about the, the purpose in scrolling, but the, the affirming that happens, right. And that process, we feel it's what we started with today.
It's like to feel part of the saying, to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel like we are all a part of the same purpose. even if it's in our small world or our small side, right? I think there's something in that, but I also think about the way the social media, it trains our brain. So then when in a world where we don't have as many boundaries on social media, we can say whatever, we can think whatever, we can feel whatever, but in relationship with somebody else, We, in theory, should not do that, but yet we train ourselves with so much content coming into our world all the time, right? So then in real relationship, we, we feel that same feeling. I get to have my say, I get to have my view, I get to have my opinion, I get to call you out, I get to lean towards that, the, the words you threw out there were hostility, the harmful, the validating perspective of my own voice. But that doesn't work in connection with each other.
Chrissie: Doesn't work IRL, right? It's like we're operating an avatar in a video game that looks like real life.
Corey: Absolutely.
Chrissie: And then we start to become potentially even more comfortable with the avatar existence than the three dimensional existence. And what do you think contributes to more actual joy?
Corey: There's a trick to this that I do not have the answer to.
Chrissie: Tell us the hat trick.
Corey: The hat trick is this idea of, on paper, I think we all know the answer to that. The good thing will bring more joy.
Chrissie: But joy is complicated as we know, right? It brings more joy and joy is complicated.
Corey: Exactly. Joy is very complicated and joy is in the process. Right? Is how I view it.
So to really trust that joy is there in the good things, I have to trust that that's what I want to move towards. But can we really, probably more on a subconscious level, can we really trust that's out there without reaching it first? Probably not. That's why we lean the other way. We have to be willing to lean towards the uncertainty, the unknown, the unpredictability, the scariness, as the.
The big feelings, because then we will have joy. We will answer that question and be like, that felt much better. I like this much better, but until we really experienced that, I don't know how, how well we trust that just as human beings, I think we have to, we have to affirm it, we have to reinforce it. So there's a hat trick there of like, how do I, how do I allow myself to always push myself in that direction and experience that joy to then affirm when I am triggered or pulled the other direction that the balance is misaligned and I actually have agency and choice about which way I want to go.
Yeah. That's really hard.
I don't have the answer. Go do this and you'll be fine. Nobody has the answer. But we have to be aware. And like we started with today, we have to turn inward to turn outward, but we also have to share in that connection and the impact we have on each other. It matters. So it's an intersection of our values and who we are as people.
If uncle Bob over there is completely polar opposite of me. How do I hold a boundary, but I also hold love and care. That's a lot to hold. Yeah, there's some scripting that
Chrissie: we're not prepared with all the time. To, to actually say that language is painful to me. Mm-Hmm. , could we talk about what's present with here, you know, here right now, Joaquin?
Joaquin: You know, um, I agree with a lot of, uh, what Corey is saying and when it comes to navigating conversations with folks, have a dis a different point of view. Um, I first know that they're not gonna care for me, so they're not going to like. Be watching out for my feelings. So that's okay. Do you know that?
Chrissie: Do you know that they don't care for you?
Joaquin: Uh, no, I don't think they want me to hurt but they're not gonna come in and make sure that I'm having a good experience Right or that my voice is being heard like that's not and you know what quite frankly, that's nobody's Job, but your own voice your own so I kind of go in with it with that attitude and I also go in and I say Okay, they really feel right and I do think that there's something about the experience Of being right, feeling right, thinking logically that you're right, that offers a sense of control and ease and sense of that you're doing something right in life because you don't feel you're doing anything right in life sometimes.
And I do think it, honest to God, it comes from that kind of space that they just want to win. They just want to get something right. They just, and God damn it, like they want to express themselves. So I really feel. Uh, when I'm with somebody that's got a different point of view from me, they're doing it from a place, the same place I'm doing it from, right, they're doing it from a place of survival.
They're doing it from a place of like wanting to keep what's theirs and wanting to like connect with folks like themselves, you know, like it's like the same thing. It's almost like a mirror. Um, and it's strange to me because it's so different. Right. But I sit there and I ask him, well, tell me why this or X or Y.
And they'll say, well, they'll have really good arguments. Then I'm like, huh, I hadn't thought about that. Right. I don't agree with it, but you know, I get it, you know, I, I totally, totally. And when you go down to it, like this, they're, they're driven by the same values. We're all driven by the same values.
It's just the external looks really, really, really different, like really different. Uh, but like the, that spirit's the same and that's a real hard one. That's a real hard one. There is something to be said about being flexible. I'm of the spirit of you really can't control outcomes. You can, you can impact probability, but you can't control outcomes, right?
Some people think they can, right? And so the work becomes about control instead of about, instead of like impacting. So that I do think there's a difference there.
Chrissie: I love that you both spoke so eloquently to the complexity inherent in this, um, this question we're addressing today. And, you know, we talked about agency and you just spoke about control and the other side of that continuum is helplessness, which I think many of us fear, right?
And Agency in action is a big part of many of us, um, feeling better feeling like this is we're moving toward a better state. So wherever we are on the political spectrum, the 1st and most important thing that we can do from my perspective is register to vote and follow through with voting, you know, make sure that you are actually doing the bare minimum to participate in this dynamic process.
If you are. compelled to do more than just vote, by all means contribute to the candidates that you feel strongly in support of. If you feel that your time and action might be contributory to You know, what you want to see happen in the world, looking back on it, you will feel better if you align your actions with your beliefs and your vision, right?
When we have a vision, and then we're aware that we have a vision for ourself. So we have a vision of exactly how and when we're going to vote. We have a vision for the outcome. We, we wish to see, we might participate in a phone bank or a door knock or a postcard writing event. Um, and, you know, at the very least we can check in with each other and say, are you okay?
Or if we know somebody's across the aisle from us, you know, Hey, however, this goes, I just wanted to know I'm here and I want to stay connected. Uh, and I'm not going to Pollyanna that and pretend like it's simple or straightforward because. There are legitimate threats to that capacity, so no should is inferred here.
It's, it's really just sort of aspirational about how we, how we stay in as much peace in our bodies as we possibly can through this process. And I think asking what is it like for you, just like you are describing Joaquin, when you ask somebody who's really, um, rigid, we'll say, who's very different. It's, Even somebody who's similar perspective, but different amplitude from you, right?
Like, what is it like for you is an interesting question to get into spaces where we might have a common human experience.
Joaquin: Yeah, uh, I have friends who work in politics and I had a boss once and they were, um, they used to do a lot of campaigning and we were talking and she said, um, That when it comes to campaigns, there are, there are people on either side of the spectrum and they're going to vote their party line, doesn't matter who is running, they're going to vote their party line.
Like that's their, that's their vote. And you can't really change those, their, their minds regardless of who is running. Uh, and so the folks that the people are campaigning for are the people who are in the middle that are, that are, don't know which way to lean. Right. And if. And when she said that to me, I was like, that makes sense.
That's why it's so dramatic because they're trying to get people who are in the middle to go either way. They're not worried about the people who are on the, uh, on either side of the spectrum who are voting their, their party. Right. It's really the people in the middle. They're trying to like push to some other side and when she said that everything kind of made sense to me and everything was like wow now I get why it's so divisive and Dramatic
Chrissie: So as we close our conversation today, I I'll ask each of you what thoughts do you have about navigating this complicated time? Um, what are some takeaways that you would like to offer?
Corey: So that's a great perspective to kind of land on. I think when I think about this whole conversation today, I think about, I come back to kind of where I started, which is How do we know what we're in response to? How do we know what we know? How do we honor the feelings and the perspectives and the world that we're navigating all the time?
Um, so I think my takeaway from all of this, even just for myself today is, is it's a, it's a reminder to be able to give ourselves a little bit of permission to be curious about ourselves. The thing that stands out the most today is, is. I think Joaquin just did a beautiful job of like pointing out the thing, which is like, we want to feel like we're in control.
But I would bet you that if you took a minute and you wrote down everything that you feel like you're in response to now, a lot of those things would not be in your control. And so, can we give ourselves a little room to be curious about where we're at? See what we actually have control over in our world, not everybody else's world, and be able to lean towards that, to trust, to take the risk, because maybe in that we're going to solve our own sense of joy.
Maybe we'll find some place to be grounded and centered, and not get lost in all of the other things. To know where we are, to know how we feel, to know what we think, because we're coming up on an election, we're coming up on I mean, the world's always in some sort of flux, we'll say, um, but we need to know why we do the things we do.
Why we vote the way we vote, why we say the things we say, where does that really come from?
Chrissie: Yes. How much of that is a product of our environment and culture and staying connected to people? Because that's okay.
Corey: That's part of our world. But we share in the ownership of that, that we also have to hold ourselves accountable and be able to, we have to look at ourselves in the mirror at the end of the day.
And we have to feel good about that person that we see. So we need to be curious about where our thoughts, where our beliefs, where our values all stem from so we can honor them in our process as we move through the world.
Chrissie: Thank you. So useful. Joachim, final thoughts, takeaways.
Joaquin: Yeah, I think that, um, my final thoughts are maybe just maybe a little bit stoic in that, um, there is no such thing as control.
There's only what you think you're doing. So You know, people do that people like to put themselves in some sort of trance like state that feels like they're in control and I think that that's okay. That's what we do. I mean, that's what we do when we're traumatized. That's what we do when we find a really good way of doing something.
That's what we do, you know? And I used to think, uh, when I would find, um, when I was a kid and I would find like a really great deal on jeans. at Nordstrom's. I would want everybody to buy these jeans because it's such a great deal. And not everybody wants jeans. Um, and so I had to learn that. Um, and also, we don't know what attachments people are acting out.
Some people are acting out that for their love and safety, they must be aggressive. And some people are acting out for their love and safety, they must be soft and open. And those are both true. That's really hard. Right. But what I would, what I would offer the public is, are you responding or are you reacting?
Kind of like what Corey was saying, right? Are you thinking or are you just feeling right? Um, and What happens if we just maybe just respond a little right with some more thought, right? Or maybe what happens if we just react more honestly, right? What, where that will lead us. Um, and then one thing I, I'm always astounded by, um, whenever I meet folks who are leaders, um, especially leaders of like the more religious aspects or the more spiritual aspects and they're real rigid.
Right? That's always such a like, it's so confusing. But I say, if you really have some grand idea that's supposed to bring us all together, then it should bring us all together. And if it puts us and pins us against each other, it's not a grand idea that brings us together.
Chrissie: Yes.
Joaquin: And if that comes your way.
Put on your sneakers and run
and don't stop.
Chrissie: I love it. And Sara, any final thoughts from you?
Sara: Well, I certainly echo what you've all touched on. He's really Important themes of curiosity and connection and control or lack thereof. And I really feel the importance of recognizing in this time, the difference between the mindset of, well, I can't control what happens with the mindset of, I can't actually control what happens. I can, however, control my experience of it and what I choose to do with it.
Chrissie: Yes, Sara, it's so crucial that we recognize what is in our sphere of control and what we can actually take ownership of. It's a crucial step navigating such complex times.
Sara: Right. And I think that that sense of empowerment is especially important right now in this time that feels so existential to so many of us, particularly when we're viewing it from our individual echo chambers, magnified by social media and all the ways that, that were addressed earlier, and I think it invites us to take a moment to really get clear on what our foundational values are, like what are those really fundamental principles and values and dreams and goals as human beings that we have, and that are the impetus for what we go forth and create. In the world, and I think as Joaquin spoke to, and as Chrissie exemplified beautifully with the story of her family being rescued from the flood, I think if we look closely enough, we'll find how similar we all are, that the details and the noise are so big.
Busy, and so in our face, they distract us from those foundational values that, that matter. And I think we get through that by sharing stories. And that means both telling your stories and receiving them with an open mind and an open heart. And that does not mean that you're going to love everyone in the world.
And it does not mean that 300 million people are all of a sudden going to come together and agree on the most important issues of our day and how to solve them. But I think what that does is create a flow of empathy. And that can only serve to deepen our understanding of those issues and what the root causes are of all the distress that we're feeling across so many areas in this day and age.
Thank you very much. And that act makes room for us to find some creative solutions to these problems. Because again, it's not about everyone coming to the same conclusion. It's about navigating a path forward for all of us. And practically speaking, I think for myself, that starts with catching myself when I start to spiral out into these stories in my head about.
I mean, I'll be honest, a MAGA hat, I have a visceral reaction when I see that. And that's because I have a whole story in my head about who's wearing it. And this really came clear for me one day when I was driving down the highway and a big white four by four pickup truck with a very loud engine came roaring past me and cut me off.
And I noticed a Trump sticker on the back of it. And then I noticed another offensive. Bumper sticker that I won't even describe. And I had that visceral reaction driving down the highway. And I felt my face got flushed. I felt this wave of rage. And in my mind, I created an entire story for this person about the, You know, rifle they had underneath the front seat of their truck and the, what, where they lived and where they worked and what their life looked like.
I literally had an entire character in my mind of this person. And all of a sudden I thought, Sara, you haven't even seen the person. Like I couldn't even see their face. It was just through the little back window of the truck. You know, I couldn't, I hadn't even, uh, seen their, noticed their face. Their character, their characteristics, and I think what happens in that moment is we have a choice.
We can stay in that spun out place and continue to live and feed that schadenfreude and that, that feeling of anger that, that really does give some dopamine hits, unfortunately. Or we can stop and ask ourselves what else might be true? I thought in that moment of that person, gosh, What if that person is.
Or what if that person is trying to get to work and they're freaked out because something happened that made them late and they're going to lose their job and not be able to support their family if they don't get there on time? Or, particularly poignant in my case, what if their spouse just died? That, to me, is enough to give me a pause and a moment and I won't pretend that I had all kinds of lovey feelings towards this asshole that just cut me off in traffic, but it did shift from a generalized trope to imagining all of the parts of humanity that also exist within that four by four pickup truck.
And I, I think that that is so meaningful to me because at the end of the day, it's when we dehumanize each other that we get lost.
Chrissie: So thanks for sharing that story. I, I really appreciate how transparent it is of you to share that reaction. And, you know, anyone listening might have a similar reaction to different symbols that, um, create, you know, automatic thoughts and division and sort of dehumanizing or bad othering these people that we don't even know. Right? Um, when I see someone with a symbol that I have a reflexive aversion to, I try to just ground myself and think, what else might be true? What else, what else could be going on here? So important what you offered about what else does the context possibly include? Finds us some common ground.
Sara: Yes um, you also talked about the mind body connection and how fundamental it is to our wellbeing and how much we know about the impact of the body on the mind and the mind on the body and that we really are one unit. And I always think of Bernie Brown, who said, you know, we go around assuming that we're thinking beings that have feelings, but in reality, we're feeling beings who think, and I come back to that over and over because it's profoundly true.
Um, I just want to say speaking to solving for joy. I remain deeply hopeful for our progress as a species and as a society. I think we are each individually capable, competent human beings, and I do believe that we will find our way back to each other. I think that hope is joyful and I think that joy is hopeful.
Chrissie: That is so true, Sara. There's definitely hope and joy and there is definitely joy and hope. Thank you for bringing that forward as our entire aspiration here is to bring people closer to skillfully solving for joy in their own lives. And in particular, in this complex divisive political season.
What a delightful conversation. I feel inspired and heartened, and I have a lot to chew on myself, thinking about why I believe and respond to circumstances in the way that I do, and continuing to lean into curiosity when I encounter loved ones or strangers who see the world different. to my perspective, um, and to get really curious and remember that it really makes sense in their perspective. It's not, it doesn't not make sense from their perspective. And that is, um, a point of respect to remember that, right? Like they are not, no one is an idiot because they believe differently, right?
Or they feel differently or they think differently does not equal idiocy. Even if the position is Very upsetting to us. So I just am so grateful to all three of you for this conversation. And, um, you know, in our talking about the trance of scrolling and social media, I will just throw out there as a, as a potential interest, no affiliate agreement here.
Get brick. app is an app that basically tries to make your phone less enticing to your dopamine system. So investigate as you wish. Thank you guys so much for being here. I appreciate and adore all three of you. Thank you.
Sara: Thank you so much, Chrissie. It's really been wonderful. And Joaquin and Corey, so lovely to have this conversation with you as well.
Joaquin: Thank you so much for the time, Chrissie and Sara and Corey. I really enjoy these perspectives, and they're really challenging and difficult, but if we can't, um, put our arms around them, we'll never really know how to embrace them, will we?
Chrissie: So true.
Corey: It's a wonderful opportunity to really come together in community and to be able to also Not just connect, because ultimately that's what we're all looking for, but to have a moment like this to be able to also feel like maybe in a world that's a little bit crazy, we're also going to be okay.
Chrissie: It's been
Corey: a pleasure to be here with you guys.
Chrissie: Thank you guys so much. Here's my arms around all of you. Group hug. We'll see you next time. Thank you guys so much for listening to Solving for Joy.
Join us next time. For an episode of solving for joy with Dr. Tracy Asamoah about finding wholeness and joy in leadership. Also, it's not too late to join 30 days of creative wisdom. If you haven't considered it, please come. Even if we've already started, they're not sequential. They're meant to be drop in and you'll have replay access to all 30 episodes.
So come and join us. If you are interested in knowing how to work with Joypoint Solutions or any of the coaches, please go to joypointsolutions. com for more information and know that we have both live and asynchronous versions of our signature course, 12x12 to go. That's joypointsolutions. com. I want to take a moment to acknowledge my incredible team.
Our music today is by Denys Kyshchuk, cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken. This podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn. Post production and more are handled by Alyssa Wilkes and my executive assistant, Rachel Osborne. A special shout out to my steadfast friend and director of operations, Denise Crain, and to the one and only loyal champion number one fan, Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in.
May we continue caring for ourselves and others, and may we continue solving for joy.
