Corey Thompson (00:00.887)
And joy is an outcome. It's something that gets solved along the way. The goal is to be able to enjoy the equation of it all.
Corey Thompson (00:13.446)
The idea of microdosing joy is take a little at a time. We start to trust the process of joy slowly and one bite at a time.
Corey Thompson (00:27.06)
I love that joy is often hiding in the unknown, the uncertain, and it becomes this unexpected reality or surprise.
Chrissie Ott (00:42.69)
You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Christy Ott.
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Solving for Joy podcast. I'm so excited to be here with my dear friend, Cory Thompson. Cory is a therapist whose practice is focused on issues of intimacy, sexual health, and wellbeing. He is a parent, a performing artist, and my dear friend, since about 2005, what? Which is amazing because he's only 27 years old still.
And will be for a very long time. Welcome, Corey. I love you. I'm so glad you're here. It's such a pleasure to be here and I'm so excited to spend some time with you today and see what happens. Yes. So I know that you weren't always a therapist and I would love to learn and share with our listeners.
what has the journey been like for you and what did it have to do with solving for joy as you decided to make that turn in your professional life and then into specializing in intimacy and sex therapy?
Corey Thompson: Absolutely. I think that's a a window into joy because for a very long time in my career, I did a lot of different things, but
most prominently, I worked in property management. And there came a point where that was not joyous. And that also intersected with a time in my life when I was getting ready to have a, were getting ready to adopt a child and bring a child into our world. So when that started to become a reality, I really
Chrissie Ott (02:43.116)
began to take some inventory and some stock about where life was, where we were going, how it was all going to work out. Having a partner that was very busy and had a very demanding job and also having a career myself meant that this new addition was going to be very difficult and very trying. So, that made me consider my career options and what I was doing. And initially I thought I should go be.
a school counselor, because then I would be able to have the same schedule as anybody who came and lived in our world. and that was initially what opened that door for me. And I think what happened was something unexpected. I actually found a program that definitely called to my values and my personality and what I really think I truly wanted to do, but didn't know I wanted to do. And it really.
intersected very nicely to also welcoming a small child into our world and not letting that all drive us too crazy because it was still a lot to go through. Yeah, so that's kind of a little bit of a little window for you. Like, how did I go from this world to this world so quickly was I just pointed the sail a little bit to say, maybe this would be a good idea. And then it carried me
into something that I didn't expect. And I think sometimes that's where joy is hiding a lot, is in the unexpected and in the uncertain times for us all. I love that joy is often hiding in the unknown, the uncertain, and it becomes, you know, this unexpected reality or surprise. It kind of answers one of my common questions.
you know, that I think about asking people when we're exploring joy is like, how has joy surprised you? So it's, you know, thinking maybe school counseling and ending up in a private practice focused on sex and relationship therapy is such a fascinating change of trajectory. And we often talk about the importance of pausing.
Chrissie Ott (05:08.642)
to take stock of where we're headed, deciding, deciding again, using our values as our compass and our sense of purpose and mission as our compass. And so I am especially delighted that you used a sailing analogy, because I think it's, you're like, I'm not on the course that I think I want to be in the future. Let me adjust my sails and drift back the way I want to find myself.
I think it's so important. think so many people spend a lot of time thinking about where we want to get to. What are our goals? What do we want to like, even as a therapist now for 10 years doing many different kinds of work, what do I want? What are my goals? What do I hope to get out of this? All of those kinds of things. But again, those are, those are in the distance. Those are, those are very far away.
And sometimes I think it's good to know where we're headed, but we got to make room for a lot of other possibilities that could occur along the way. Absolutely. It reminds me of wayfinding, right? we use the horizon because that's where we're headed. So there has to be something on the horizon or at least something we're imagining beyond where we can see. But we also need the stars or our GPS system.
Absolutely. To inform us of where we are. And we keep checking.
Yeah, because we can't get anywhere if we can't also look at where we've been, right? What has already occurred? What has already, what have we already been through? Where have we already had some level of change or experience or so many things happen? And if we're only pointed at the horizon, we're never going to get there because it's going to keep moving on you. Yes. The horizon alone is not a reliable navigating.
Chrissie Ott (07:13.083)
by itself. Such a good thought. I love that.
There's so many good ways to go with you, Cory, your rich tapestry of experience. mean, one of the things that comes to mind is that you happen to be married to a physician, which is part of how we became connected. So during my residency, which was in Houston, Texas, Cory's husband, Michael, was also in residency at the program basically across the street.
But we met because a friend of yours was also a friend of my wife's. And we met through Brenda Cones and became fast friends. we were like, we're definitely staying connected forever. Most definitely. Yes, there was an interesting way the universe also brought
two people who are going through such a similar experience and then two people who are going through the other side of that very interesting experience and to each other's circles and very affected other side. Exactly. For both directions, two way street there, right? Like what you and Michael were going through and what Sue and I were going through as as partners to that and support systems and also having our own
lives and careers and goals and all of those things happening. Yeah, we've been through many iterations together. Yes, indeed. And many more to come, I would say. Cheers to that. Absolutely. How do you think your idea of joy has changed over time given those iterations?
Chrissie Ott (09:06.126)
That's a great question. think that for me, one of the things that has not changed is recognizing that joy itself is always changing. I think that at a different time in my life that I would have thought that joy was in the joyous moments.
happy times, it's in the exhale and the release of being able to be present and grounded and fully enjoy so many things that are happening in our lives at any given time. I think what I've learned over the years about joy is that
Joy is always being solved for. I think that it's not a linear math equation. One plus one does not equal two here. I think that we're really always solving for joy. And that joy is often actually being able to be connected to the hard parts of the story. If we don't get through the hard...
thing, how joyous can we be, right? If we don't see the darkness, then what, how bright is the light, right? I think that's changed for me because I think in a, one point in life, I would be very optimistic and very excited and very like, just be able to see that side of it. And I think, especially as a therapist, what I've learned and what I've seen happen for so many people is that the joy is an outcome.
It's not something that we solve for necessarily. It's something that gets solved along the way. The goal isn't to solve it. The goal is to be able to enjoy the equation of it all.
Chrissie Ott (11:09.708)
I think part of what I heard was from an earlier standpoint, a younger perspective, perhaps, maybe you understood joy as all upside experiences. with time and with maturity, understand joy is inclusive of the upsides and the apparent downsides.
situational challenges and in the wholeness of it is what actually creates the sense of fulfillment that is joyful. Yes, yes, I would agree. I think we, as human beings, are always seeking that an integration of all the things that we're inexperienced of and also all the possibilities that are outside of our experience. And we need Broom to be able to
to hold all of that and that joyful joyousness is actually, it's holistic, it's a piece of it all, right? It's not just something, I think the analogy I use a lot of times for clients is that if you're driving somewhere,
You can't just to your example earlier about the horizon, right? Like if we're just driving somewhere, we can't just be like, I got to get to California and I'm going get in the car and start driving to California, right? If we're not paying attention along the way, wherever we're going, what we're going through, what the detours are, where and how far we've come, then we're probably not ever going to make it to California. Right. I think that that's.
true in the human experience too. Like we're always in movement. We're always in motion. We're always evolving. We're always changing. And if we don't make room for that whole picture, we're going to get sucked. And the old stuff is always waiting there. Something you said sparked a brand new metaphor for me. And I love a good metaphor. Okay, here it is.
Chrissie Ott (13:31.082)
In our lives, we're basically spinning wool into yarn. And we have like, as long as we have time and experience, we're getting more wool and we're spinning it into yarn. And then our expression, like the potential, the future unknown is all the different things we get to make with that yarn. Like whether it's booties or a sweater, or like the one thing I know to do, which is a straight up one stitch scarf.
It's a very long scarf. It just keeps going. Just keeps going, wrap it around and around. That's a fun, playful metaphor for my brain. I like that metaphor and I like it because it also points at
The other side, which is what happens when we are not getting more yarn, right? Like when we're not getting enough experience when we're, but also when we're hopeless, when it's hard, when we're grieving, when we're lost, when all those other things that happen in life. Right. And there is no thread to give. We still need help. Right. We're still getting more yarn, but we're not actually able to do a lot of producing during that time. Exactly.
Exactly, I think that's real truth of the human experience and it's easy for that to become the story when it's only part of the story, right? I think we need the room to see how one thing holds space for the other. And if we don't, we're lost.
I am definitely going to come back to that analogy. I... Yeah, it's playing on in my brain right now. Like, and the sweater keeps somebody else warm. Like what we produce actually is of good use to ourselves and others. Right? It's fun. What do you think about microdosing joy, Corey? Microdosing is one of my favorite terms.
Chrissie Ott (15:43.99)
I will say, I'll speak to that as a therapist because I talk about it a lot with clients. And I think that will also give you a little window into my own world and how I see that. The idea of microdosing joy is a way that I like to play with this idea. A lot of what we've already pointed out is that joy is, it's big.
It's wondrous. It's exciting. It's inviting. It's also elusive. It also hides. It's also sometimes in the darker parts of our world. And so to really encompass the experience of joy, we need the room to break it down and let it affect and take it in. Right? We need the room to microdose it.
We need to take a little at a time and we need to be able to see not just how it affects us, but the ability to really form that relationship of experience around it so we can start to trust it more and more and more. If we just try to take the big picture of joy and get our hands around it, it might stay just out of our reach.
But if we break it down and we actually have real experiences here that we can really absorb and we can take in, we can reflect on, we can taste it, we can feel it. We start to trust the process of joy. We start to really to your, which is what I love about your message is like, we start to really solve and we start to really solve for joy. It's there that we have to.
We have to take it slow in the beginning. We have to break it down. We have to get in there and learn what that is and what that is for us. Cause everybody's going to have a different experience of that too.
Chrissie Ott (17:55.67)
Yes, it's like bite-sized pieces. You have to have bites in order to metabolize. Right. You know, the old joke, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? One bite at a time. And that also says one bite at a time creates that more, there's like a compounding effect from that then, right? Right.
One little bite gets us closer and closer or fuller or fuller or happier or happier. The same with joy. One little bit at a time starts to compound in our, in the fibers of our being, the way our brain is metabolizing it, for example, for the way we're making sense of it, for the way it starts to show up in our day-to-day world. It becomes from out of grasp, it becomes tangible.
comes an inside experience. By the way, elephants are dear and precious creatures. I would never eat an elephant. And we would never ever eat an elephant. To all the people in the world out there, there will be no elephant eating. I would never harm an elephant. I found a poem a while back in my third grade poetry folder that for some reason is still in my possession at age 52. And I had written my mom a poem about
tired she was, which I think is funny, and an elephant poem, most of which was like, elephants, elephants, never forget. So let's never forget about the elephants. A masterpiece. A masterpiece. mean, it's joy. Nostalgic joy. Nostalgic joy. There it is. Yes. I bet that people listening to our conversation today are super interested in
your work with individuals and couples who are solving for joy in the context of having, wanting, or grappling within relationship. Tell us a little bit about what you share with people or what you observe in human relationships. Of course, staying respectful of people's privacy. know you are. Right. Right.
Chrissie Ott (20:19.118)
I think, you know, I'll tell you a little story here about how I became a therapist to a sex therapist, right? And I think that will answer part of your question here too, is that I was a therapist for a very long time in a community mental health setting, a long time, probably nine years.
yet I'm still 27. But what I was finding in that is that I was working in a setting where people were dealing with some of the most traumatic things that could happen out there. And they were dealing with drug addiction, homelessness, psychosis, severe mental health disorders, all sorts of things would walk in the door.
And what always stood out to me is that every single person, no matter how big the thing was that brought them in the door, what they really wanted to talk about was connection and how they felt in the world and how they were seeking relationship and to be seen and to be treated and experienced in a way that just made them feel okay. And I remember really, really
Really distinctly walking out of work one day and thinking to myself, like, there's a lot of big conversations here. So there's a lot of not to negate or diminish any of the quote unquote, problems that bring somebody in the door. But the reality is that we're also all just seeking something in our own little corner of the world and our own little human experience. And that's often some level of connection.
and a sense of being okay and being well. And that really always resonated with me that the joke I often would make is like, doesn't matter what you came in the door for, we're probably gonna end up talking about sex or your relationships because that's usually the thing that you have to deal with every day too. And it helps you feel grounded. It helps you feel guided. It helps you feel supported.
Chrissie Ott (22:44.686)
So that really kind of made me start taking some things apart and say, well, what do I do next if I don't stay in this setting? And so sex therapy seemed like a really, again, the universe knocked and said, hey, what about this? And I pointed my sale and said, how about that? And went and did some training and went through a program. And then that led me into this world that I am in now, which is private practice.
working with individuals, working with couples, working with polycules, all sorts of different relationship structures. And I think what I see people still seeking is not just the problem, we fight, we don't desire each other anymore. We have performance issues in the bedroom. We...
have a discrepancy in our desire between the two of us. We want to fix that. We want to talk about that. We want to talk about how we feel about that. Porn, addictive behaviors, compulsive behaviors, all those things that bring us in the front door. I think what I see a lot of still is that people are seeking a deeper understanding of themselves, of themselves in response to another person or another group of people.
And also if we really started to break that down in microdose that where do we actually have some control that might actually impact our big want. Right. I always like to think about it that people will come in often to work on a lack of desire, very common problem, right. Or challenge in a relationship because it happens. It's a normal part of, of the human experience.
And when we get there, we spend a lot of time talking about how we communicate, how we connect, how we understand each other. And if we really started to see the trajectory, we see that the more connected we are, the better we communicate. The more we understand each other, the better connected we are. The more curious we are, the more we want to know, the more we want to engage.
Chrissie Ott (25:12.28)
because we feel seen, we feel heard, we feel understood, we found new ways to talk about it. And then we start to also feel something that we haven't felt for a while, which is we feel that natural want to be a part of our partner's world, to be curious about it, to talk about it. We start to feel attracted. We start to feel desire. And it's not about just jumping into bed and saying, what's going on there. That's important. We're going to get there.
But we really need to be able to also start with what got us there to begin. And I think that's universal, whether it's an individual, whether it's a couple, whether it's a group of people, everybody's kind of looking to see, why is this not working anymore? And why do I get stuck? And how do we talk about it? And how do we talk about it? What are our communication skills about it? How do we communicate in service of connection?
Exactly. So you had an experience of people with really serious mental health disorders. You found the common thread was about connection. And as a side note, we know that connection mitigates trauma. We're all walking around wounded. Absolutely. And connection is the most universal balm for that.
And my addition for that is that presence is a prerequisite to connection. And we can augment our skills of presence in order to be more effective connectors. follow and am, you know, one of my teachers is James Olivia Hillman and
She often says, you know, more you is better, which is an invitation to presence, right? To aware presence, to increasingly conscious presence, to presence on purpose so that the way that we are being with those that we relate to is more honest in some ways, you know, more full.
Chrissie Ott (27:42.254)
I think that when we are here fully, can't help but experience it. It just really changes the odds of us having a experience of joy. Yes, I'd agree with that. 100%. I think I would also offer that.
I think there's also what is it in presence that is so difficult to be able to connect to, right? Is there, like to your point, our stories, right? Like our experiences, the patterns we've learned to not just survive, but thrive in. But many of those are also a way to not be present.
And if we want to be present, we have to overcome our own experience.
Otherwise, presence is also elusive. I wonder if you can say that one more time because that went so deep.
So to presence ourselves.
Chrissie Ott (28:51.256)
we need to overcome certain parts of our experience? Is that? I don't think it's so much, but let me say that again, because it's not so much now that you say that back, it's not so much to overcome. I think it's to honor. Integrate, perhaps. To integrate, right. That, again, I really love this idea of
I say it all the time, right? Like we have to be present. We have to be grounded. We have to be here, right here, right now, and know what we're in response to and know how we're, what we're doing with that. But we can't negate all the other parts of the story, right? And I think so often all the other parts of the story is actually trying to teach us the pathway to become, in this case,
more present, more grounded, more accessible, more available to what we really want, which is some sort of change, some sort of better, some sort of different. Yes. Some imagined future state that is judged better by our brain in some way.
I think a different way to say what I think what I was trying to say too, is that what we want or what we need, we need to be more present. We need to be more connected to being present. Presence is a very important part of wellness, right? But what is in the way of presence is our own story. Right? Yes. And so we can't just say, forget that or
don't worry about that or right here, right now we can just be this. We have to integrate. We have to make room for it all. We have to actually move towards the hard parts. We move towards the dark parts and we make room for them. So they work in, they work in compliment to each other instead of at a, I don't even have a good word for it, at attention to each other.
Chrissie Ott (31:15.064)
That makes me curious about this question. When people have experienced what they call betrayal, or perhaps they have a monogamous relationship and there's been infidelity, or perhaps it's an experience where one partner has a desire to be polyamorous and you're negotiating what that's like.
This is an experience that's increasingly happening in the world today. By the way, if you heard Corey say the word polycule earlier, quick definition is a unit of people who are related in a polyamorous relationship.
can be three or more. I'm wondering about like, how do we reclaim or find joy? And I know this is not a simple answer, or there's not a right or wrong, but what does your experience tell you about joy, as people in relationship are turning towards those difficult parts that you decided and, are looking to make meaning or be in present
creative response to those apparent hardships and difficulties. You aimed your arrow right at the heart of it there. You know, in sex therapy, that is a very common thing that people will see a sex therapist for. There's been a betrayal. There's been an affair. There's been a breaking of the relationship dynamic. There's been something big has happened.
and yet we want to try to work on it. We want to try to figure it out. Right. I mean, it's such a destabilizing pain. It's almost a redefining of self when you're in twined with your partner and this sort of thing happens. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. think that
Chrissie Ott (33:25.44)
I think one thing that I always try to hold in my head as I'm having those conversations, as I'm listening to those stories with clients, as for working our way through them, as for processing, is that we have to hold that there are many things true at one time. And sometimes those truths are...
This is very simplified, of course, but like there's been a betrayal. There's been a breaking of trust. Somebody is hurt. Yeah. And in a way, it's also a trauma to the relationship. It's a trauma to the individuals and it's also a trauma to
that connects to any other of the parts of our story, right, that are important. So I think that we have to make room for the truth that we're here to work on healing, we're here to work on understanding, we're here to have some really hard conversations.
But we have to also make room for the fact that this is a opportunity at the same time as it's something that hurts. if you decide we're going to figure this out or we're going to go to therapy and figure this out, even if that's a step towards the end of the relationship, it still is a step to understand and see each other. It's like a step toward either a peaceful end or a peaceful continuation. Yes.
Yes. One of my instructors and author, a a great teacher in the world of sex therapy is Tammy Nelson. And she often describes it as like, this is your wake or break. We're either going to wake up that relationship and take it in a brand new direction. And we're going to make room for all the horrible, bad things that have happened. And we're going to let that heal us and grow us and evolve us, or this will be the break.
Chrissie Ott (35:38.934)
it will break us. won't be able to do that. We won't be able to have enough of ourselves to give to that process. Right. And I have a feeling, I'm no relationship expert, but you know, sometimes when people break trust in relationship, it might be because they didn't have the words or the capacity or the courage to say what was causing distance and pain for them in the relationship. It's a little bit of a
sabotage in order to avoid what felt like an even greater psychic pain. I'd rather be caught in, you know, out of our agreement than face this.
with a certain kind of skill, maybe. Right, right. Yeah, I think that that's fair. That's valid. think, I don't know if this will make sense, but I feel like this is the way it makes sense in my brain is I like to often talk about this is like, this is about shared equity. We all own different parts of this. And that's really, really a tricky place to walk into when we're talking about
one person cheated on another person or broke the agreement or had an affair or has a porn addiction or something like that, right? We get to break that apart that actually maybe it's not an addiction. Maybe we're having some compulsive behaviors. Maybe it's, it's maybe you did do that. You have to own that piece of the equity and you also have to own how that impacted another person's experience. And then the other person gets to own other parts of that.
We all were part of the picture and that's hard. That's a really hard part in betrayal is that we were all there. And so even though somebody owns a big part of it, we all own the relationship. And so we have to tread really, really slowly and carefully through that process to be able to be really, to get to a place of curiosity, to really wonder what happened because you're right. What you said is, is spot on that. Why did it happen?
Chrissie Ott (37:57.144)
Why didn't it happen? Right? We could go either with corrections, but also you did the best you could with what you knew and the skills you had. And they, they showed themselves that that wasn't enough, that we betrayed, we hurt the person we love the most rather than talk to them, rather than engage with them, rather than.
not be hurt by them. Like there's a million stories or there's a million narratives, there's a million possibilities, but we kind of want to make room for them all in a way. Right. Because we have to make room for healing to happen. Yes. Somewhere at you know, 50,000 foot level, there is a place where the circumstance is actually neutral, right? And there is a future that makes sense. Right.
whether together or apart. Such a fascinating deep dive. really, I feel stirred by pondering this for sure, which is joyful to me. I wonder what are small micro dosing bits of advice or action?
that you would commend to people who are feeling a bit disconnected from joy in relationship right now. That's a good closing thought that might be a parting piece of wisdom for our listeners.
Chrissie Ott (39:31.68)
I think my departing, my closing thought on that is often not always, but how I often like to close a session, which is I don't actually have the answer to that. I don't. I have that answer for myself. I have that answer for probably for people in my world. I could probably take a guess, but you.
have the answers that you are seeking more times than not. Now, the way I like to offer access to that is I think it's really important to check in with yourself every day and slow down, stop the world in any way that works for you and be able to say, where am I at right here, right now?
What do I not love that I want a little bit less of? And what's really working that I need a little bit more of? Because then we have access to intention and setting the sail and the direction that we want to keep moving every day because joy is a process. It's a big horizon out there way out in the distance.
but it's also happening right here right now. And we cannot lose sight of that. We have to give ourselves permission and grace and access to do that every day.
Joy is on board and full steam ahead. Absolutely. And the anchor pulling you behind. It's all the things. I love it so much, Cory. What a delightful gift this conversation has been. For folks who would like to know where to find more about you, would you share a little bit about where they could find your website and how to?
Chrissie Ott (41:44.076)
request consultation, et cetera? Yeah, absolutely. So I am very, very fortunate. I am in the Seattle area. I see clients via telehealth primarily. Anywhere in Washington state, I work for a fantastic group practice called Clarity Counseling Seattle. We have nine therapists and we are a very dynamic.
very special team that I am very fortunate to work with. And yeah, I would say you could look us up there. You would find me, but you'd also find a bunch of other fantastic therapists who all work in relationships and intimacy and sex therapy and all of those things. So that's where we're at.
I it. Well, I hope that you will come back for more Solving for Joy some point in the future, Cory. This has been so wonderful. Thank you for being here. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure and I always, always am happy to see you and engage with you. Yay. All right, everybody. That's our episode for today. Take care of yourselves and each other and keep solving for joy.
Chrissie Ott (43:05.198)
Thank you so much for joining us today with Corey Thompson and this fantastic conversation. Please join us next time where we will have our very first Solving for Joy round table. All of the guests from the last four episodes are going to join me in conversation on how we can take exquisite care of ourselves during the final month of election season in the United States.
I can't wait to see where this conversation takes us. No, it is not turning into a political podcast. And I can't wait to see you there. Just a quick reminder that because we are always looking for ways to make what we do accessible and impactful to more people. We just imagined a new offering called 30 days of creative wisdom. Starting October 8th.
We are going to go live on Zoom for 30 minutes every day for 30 days. And each of the coaches in the JoyPoint Solutions coaching team are going to offer insights, tools, and teachings during that 30 minutes every day. Yes, there will be playbacks. Of course, no one's going to be available every day at noon. And it's only $30. Just $30 for 30 days of creative wisdom. I cannot wait to see where this takes us, how many beautiful conversations and connections we get to make. There'll be...
a link in the show notes if that excites you, please come and join us. If you are interested in knowing how to work with JoyPoint Solutions or any of the coaches, please go to joypointsolutions.com for more information and know that we have both live and asynchronous versions of our signature course 12 by 12 to go. That's joypointsolutions.com.
I want to take a moment to acknowledge my incredible team. Our music today is by Denys Kyshchuk. Cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken. And this podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn. Post-production and more are handled by Alyssa Wilkes and my executive assistant, Rachel Osborne. And last but not least, a shout out to my loyal champion, number one fan, the one and only Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in. May we continue caring for ourselves and others, and may we continue solving for joy.
