Chrissie Ott (00:00.778)
I used to interpret joy as Pollyanna, as euphoria, right? And for someone like me who has a very addictive personality, like that's not good, it's no bueno.
Chrissie Ott (00:16.332)
I'm certain that I've earned it. I'm certain that I can receive it. And I'm certain that I can spread it, right, and communicate it or express it.
Chrissie Ott (00:32.526)
question isn't where can I find joy? The question is how do I make contact with my joy?
Chrissie Ott (00:43.234)
You're listening to Solving for Joy. I'm your host, Dr. Chrissy Ott.
Chrissie Ott (00:50.99)
Hello and welcome to the fourth episode of Solving for Joy. I am beyond delighted to be here today with my beloved friend Joaquin Lopez. Joaquin, I'm so excited to have you here. So just by way of introduction, it's hard to even pick what to tell them about you first. Joaquin is, first of all, a creative by many different dimensions. Singer, songwriter, musician.
actor more, more just creator of things. He is also a licensed professional counselor who focuses on Jungian existential counseling, which is in itself an incredibly beautiful creative endeavor. And Joaquin is a passionate advocate for the Latinx community. He leads a writing group called Caminos de Crecimiento.
journeys of growth and does just so much good work for the arts as, wait for it, the creative laureate of the city of Portland. So Joaquin, you are just one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. You know how much I love you and this is such a delight to get to have a conversation with you on the podcast. Kristi, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be here with you.
this beautiful mountain that you've created. And yes, it's joy to be alive. So true. So true. What an excellent segue. So let's start, Joaquin. I would love to hear how are you defining joy these days and how has it evolved over your life?
That's a really good question because I've been thinking a lot about this before coming to the podcast and my relationship to joy, it's complicated. I thought for some reason I just didn't really experience a lot of joy. And I was then thinking, why do I think that? So I would go to Webster's and I look up joy and what it means. I thought to myself, well, where have I found like deep pleasure and
Chrissie Ott (03:17.57)
happiness, right in as of either physically or like in my well -being and Then as I started exploring it more I thought to myself of course, you know all the creek the creative projects that I do they bring me a lot of joy, right and The the work that I do with my clients also brings me a lot of joy So my relationship to joy today is really like it's deep. It's inner life oriented
and it feels open and it's when I feel at ease and totally comfortable and creative. To me, that is my joy. That's how I experience joy. And I really appreciate this question because I used to interpret joy as Pollyanna, as euphoria, right?
And for someone like me who has a very addictive personality, like that's not good, it's no bueno, right? Because I will go to the euphoria or I would go to the Pollyanna to satisfy that that deep empty pattern inside me that wants to feel good all the time, right? So I had this conversation that I'm sharing with you right now, earlier today, because I had to speak about it and that was my hangup was with Joy, that Pollyanna thing.
fascinating. When you say, you know, Pollyanna and this like self gratifying or addictive tendency, I hear dopamine chasing. So gratification, which is very different to how I understand the deeper dimension of joy. And I love how you brought ease and creativity together.
suggestive of flow. Yes, totally. Totally. And also the sense of certainty. Like I'm certain about whatever's in front of me that is bringing me this joy. I'm certain that I've earned it. I'm certain that I can receive it. And I'm certain that I can spread it, right, and communicate it.
Chrissie Ott (05:43.458)
or express it, right? All those certainties are true. Like I'm not having to manufacture joy. I'm not having to silence joy, you know, it's like, it's all, it's all here. It's all present. It's all directions. It's deeply authentic. I love that.
that you immediately said, I've earned it, I can receive it, I can express it, I can spread it. It's like an auto renewing resource when it is in its deepest form. Yes. Yes, really is. I love how we go deep. It's fun. You and I, we go deep really fast, really quick. We love it. We love it. We love it.
Tell me about a pivotal moment in your life where you understood the importance of joy, or perhaps that understanding shifted for you.
I think as a creative, I've seen this, the pulse of joy in my life many, times over. And the common theme in all the times that I feel this joy in the creative projects and experiences that I participate in, it's this, the theme is togetherness. It's like we're taking
breaths together and exhaling at the same time. in my work in communities, one of the things that I do that I love, I love, love doing is group songwriting. So oftentimes after a presentation that I've given or after I'm teaching something, I'll pull out my guitar and we'll start receiving
Chrissie Ott (07:51.5)
I'll ask for words or phrases, short phrases of the content that we've just discussed or the feel for the day, you know, just put it on the board. And then I'll say, I'll say we're gonna write a song now. And people literally think I'm crazy, you know, because it's like, how are you gonna write a song with, know, with just these words? Well, I do, I take out my guitar, and then I find a chord progression that feels right for the
for that moment and I just start futzing around and then a melody will come out of the words people have given me. And it always works because people, when they're reflecting honestly about something, the word they choose is an embodied word, even if it's like as simple as like freedom or something that doesn't seem like genuine, for some reason, the way they say it, the way it then gets translated on the board and the way I read it and then
The melody I find for it is like a really easy, true, simple to follow melody. So we'll create a song and then we'll sing the song together and we're literally breathing and singing at the same time, right? And then I record it and then we listen back to it. And that is where you see everybody just like, like their smiles are, you know, are huge. They're laughing at themselves. It's like...
How did we just do this? It sounds sloppy, but it's really cool, you know? And those, I've had many of those moments throughout my life and they are really filled with that joy, that honest to God, unadultered joy that comes of just being together and singing a song, right? I just had this experience last week. I was presenting at a nonprofit and at the end of the day, we did this exercise and everybody just busted up laughing.
and singing at the top of their lungs and it sounded so like...
Chrissie Ott (09:53.944)
gorgeous and sloppy and focused at the same time. It was just really, really, really, really joyful, very joyful. That sounds like such a rich and multi -layered process to go through together. I'm wondering, how do you help people not give into the consciousness or the thoughts that they might have about this being
forced or hokey or cheesy or like just the way that we can sometimes resist being real and vulnerable in exercises and opportunities like that. Yeah. Well, as a presenter, when I'm presenting, let's say content or leading a creative project or something in them in front of people, I will usually use laughter and humor. So I'll make fun of myself or like I will even say out loud,
I just said recently, I just said something along the lines of, I was teaching a tool, a mental health tool called ABC Antecedents, Beliefs and Consequences. It's a cognitive behavioral therapy tool to kind of shift your idea of what you think your story is and check it through like a series of questions and reality checks, right? I used to just hate that tool. Because I'm like,
CBT, roll my eyes, worksheet manualized therapy, this not therapy, you know, I'm psychodynamic, I'm so deep, you I'm Jungin, existential, right? Until like, I attended a workshop and this woman, I forget her name, she used this tool and she just slapped me, slapped it out of the water or blew it out of the water, what's the saying? Yeah, blew it out of the water. Whatever, blew it out of the water.
It's like a wartime metaphor. do we use torpedo in like some marine language? don't know. Well, that's interesting because I was actually the woman that was this, this woman that did the training worked with the VA and she worked used this tool with veterans. So there's that connection. But I was a believer after she taught it. I was like, wow, believer. So when I was teaching it, I said, we're going to look at our thinking.
Chrissie Ott (12:18.614)
Right? So we can see how it affects our feeling and all that. And I'm just like, and you guys, I get it. It's like, who wants to do that? Like, I don't want to do that. Like I used to roll my eyes. I used to hate this shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, what is this? just reframe it. Just pivot it. You know, you're not looking at this. very, it felt very, it like it diminished it. reduced it.
Right? And missed the point. However, what I failed to see is that I reduced that, right? And I realized that that ABC tool is actually an organic way of us problem solving. We do that all the time. Right? We always think about the stressor we're experiencing, the story we tell ourselves about that stressor and how it makes us feel. And then...
we always think about is that really real or not, you know? So it's like, it's how we think, it's how we go through life. Anyway, that was the last time this last week that I had to teach that tool and I had to kind of make fun of myself, get people to bring their defenses down. And then I modeled it. So they didn't have to do it for themselves. I just modeled it with a partner. And then they got to see how I used it, right?
The next step would be for them to then engage in the tool themselves. So it's kind of working with many different layers and approaches to help people bring down the defenses. But humor, think, is very important because it makes people just kind of open up, right? And let down their guard. Long -winded answer, but I hope it made some sense. yeah. It makes total sense. mean...
I have some resource, see if I can pull this out of my memory drawers, but there's something about laughter, how it invokes dopamine, so pleasure, oxytocin for bonding and like endorphins all at the same time. And there's just not very much like it to actually...
Chrissie Ott (14:40.512)
Once you've had a big belly laugh with somebody, you have that moment to turn back to forever. It's one of the reasons that being, using humor as a leader, using humor in your professional life, using humor with your family, like laughing with the people that you want to feel close to, creates deeper bonds.
And one hand, it's like, of course it does. But to do it with awareness and to do it strategically is, it's the meta level, right? It's the meta cognitive level. It's interesting you're saying this because when I'm working with long term clients, I can tell that they're healing when they're bringing in humor into the office, into the consulting room, when they start kind of laughing at themselves at what they used to cry about, right?
and when I'm feeling like humorous too, I have to ask myself, why is, why are, you why is humor in the room? And it's such a lovely sign that things are getting elevated. Things are lifting, right? Things are getting lighter. Right. and I, sometimes I, I will have such a good laugh with a client and then I'll feel so guilty cause then they have to walk out of the door and so people can hear that. Like we're laughing our head off.
and in comes the next client. I'm hoping like that it's not too jarring for them, right? That is an interesting juxtaposition. Yeah. What do you think about some common obstacles to experience joy? man, the common obstacles to experience joy.
Well, yeah, I'm looking at joy as that that interconnectedness that togetherness that ease the fluidity of energy going always right and that kind of lift of love and life that we have. I think the first thing that's getting in the way is our phones. We're not looking at each other. We're looking at the phone and we're looking at how big we smile or how big the other person smile and then we're judging our own smile.
Chrissie Ott (17:03.906)
we're not actually smiling, right? Or if we're smiling, it's more like a collusion of what we already think inside ourself and we're seeing it out there. So we're kind of like having this kind of reflective, not really reflective. What is that? Like we're in, it's got a name, we're in our own world. the gaze. Yeah.
we're only seeing what we can see because that's all we've ever seen and we can't see outside of it. It's because we have got this phone in front of us. So I think that's the number one thing actually to getting in the way of joy is that is that phone telephone. I think the other thing that gets in the way of joy is there's that narrative I was talking about earlier.
forget the word that you used where I was stuck on euphoria or like feeling good, Substituting, you know, drinking two line Long Islands and having a good friend laugh with a friend as joy, right? that laughter is fun. Sure. I'm open, it can be joy. But when we start introducing like substances, and it's okay to use substances and so I don't want to
color it terribly, but I would like to state that when those substances or the telephone, for example, when they start taking that place or that space for a relationship for joy, that's when we get all kooky in the head, right? Because I don't think it's, I need the substance, right? Or I need the X and Y instead of just the purity of feeling joy.
for witnessing it outside yourself. And you know, the hangups, know, my personal hangups, like even with this podcast and I saw the questions, you all these wonderful questions you're asking me. And my first thing was like, my God, you know, to kind of swallow it and kind of like reject joy, right? And I asked myself, why do I want to reject it? And joy asks you to be
Chrissie Ott (19:19.576)
vulnerable. You have to be open. And that sucks. Sometimes we don't want to be open. Sometimes I like how I'm kind of close and walking through life and wearing my Gucci, you know, I like that. Open and vulnerable is woundable. Yes, exactly. It's asking us to take some of our armor down and be pierceable by life. Yeah.
which is actually the only way to be also touchable. Yeah. 100%. Which does not mean that we're supposed to walk around with no armor at all times in all circumstances. It just means like, yeah. Discernment and range. Be able to have some range be have your own back when you need to have your own back, but don't get confused that you need to wear your armor.
at home with your kids, right? Or when you're having, I don't know, conversation with your close friends, like. Right.
set it down. Remember that it's not meant to be on you full time. Has a purpose, time and place. I think we also, I think the culture could benefit from having patterned, ritualized, common.
opportunities for people to connect and speak and talk. For example, when I go to Mexico or I go to Europe, there's always like a plaza. There's always a place where people can come out and speak and talk about nothing, right? Or there's always this habit of sitting outside your house and just watching people go by, right? And then connecting with whoever comes by, right?
Chrissie Ott (21:26.242)
I think there's, there's, we're missing that here, in, in, it's not very common. get that here and we have some of it, sometimes, you know, there's pioneer core health square. There's, there's the parks. have a lot of beautiful parks, you know? but we don't have like, it's not common. And for those listening, both, both Joaquin and I are in Portland, Oregon, but here could be construed as, you know, the United States.
The bigger here, different, different and different places. speaking of culture, I am thinking about joy within the Latino community and your work with Caminos and Vos Alta. how have those powerful tools for community transformation contribute to solving for joy in those spaces? man.
This is a very good question. Well, I will start with a phrase, a theme, and that is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves regarding anything that happened can break us down. And what will heal us is creating a new story. And that story that gets created begins from where the last one ended. Right?
So that's kind of like philosophically how I manage my projects. Vos Alta is a project that I created in 2009 to be part of Portland Latino Gay Pride. And I was interested in the stories of being Latino and being gay and managing both of those cultural vectors. So I started interviewing people and then rewriting their narrative to be performed.
When actors and musicians performed them, we would incorporate pop songs and folk songs, right? Because everybody has a connection to a pop or folk song. We all have our own relationship to a song, like a prayer, right? Or whatever it is, or la bruja, whatever it is.
Chrissie Ott (23:48.024)
We all have a relationship to it. So when we hear somebody's story and then we bring in our own relationship to a song that they're using for that story, we multiply that story, right? As an audience member, it becomes your story too, right? So for Valsalto, in doing that, we were able to sew the story of our lives with like new threads.
And we brought in and invited audience members to bring in their own personal stories, right? As they're witnessing these, these gay Latino stories. And the togetherness that is garnered from doing this is so powerful and infectious. The joy of participants who have been interviewed of hearing their story on stage and being moved.
that they have, that their story and their personal life has created such a wonderful experience for others to see, right? It brings a real deep joy, a healing joy for them that their life is valuable. And what I love doing about this project is I love interviewing both leaders and non -leaders, like the everyday person, because our struggles are the same, right? And it's really powerful for that.
And then the satisfaction, that earned place in life that somebody has after being recognized for what they've contributed to this life as a producer, you can't fake that. You can't manufacture that. That's only earned. That's only...
created and that brings me a lot of joy that I'm able to do that for people. So that's the Vos Alta project and the last one I had was last year and I featured the founder of Portland Latino Gay Pride who gave me the first opportunity to create this project. So that was a circular moment for me. I still remember sitting in the audience for your very first Vos Alta. I remember the feeling of being in that audience.
Chrissie Ott (26:10.112)
And I could see the transformations taking place and feel them taking place. And what you referred to, what comes up for me is a sense of really healthy pride, a reclaiming of self -regard, self -concept through having the story fed back to you through these eyes that have added value.
Like you're sewing it with golden thread now, you're making this beautiful tapestry and they're like, wait, that's just me. That's my narrative. You just did that beautiful thing with, I have value. Thank you for reminding me. One of my teachers calls it Vajra pride. know, that very, just very wholesome amount of pride, not pridefulness, not ego, egotism, but healthy pride.
Yeah, 100%. The Historia de Grecimiento is a different project altogether. during the pandemic, Multnomah County Library here in Portland, Oregon, asked me to teach the Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz, Don Miguel Ruiz. And so I did. so the two classes that I taught,
for Multnomah County, there was a select group of folks that wanted to stay connected. So we stayed connected and we'd meet every two weeks and just have talks about leadership. And it was a great challenge for me because I had to do it in Spanish. And at one point, I just suggested to them to write their own story. And they were struggling with a few concepts from the book and they wanted to know how to do this or that emotionally. I said, well, just...
let's just write our own stories and see what we've learned. So two years later, we wrote our own stories and we learned, all of us learned a lot. I had never published a book before we published, we self published through Amazon and wow. What's the name of that book on Amazon? It's called Historia de Crescimiento. I'll share the link with you later. Historia de Crescimiento by
Chrissie Ott (28:28.226)
Caminos de crecimiento. The group is called Caminos de crecimiento. The power of the published word.
for folks who never thought could be published is powerful. It's a gift of freedom, a gift of this is who I am, this is how I am, and this is where I am. And it's in a book and it's eternal now. I've taken it outside myself, right? And that as a project, I've learned so much and I...
I have been very honored to be able to steward this. And what we do with the book is now we go into the community and we'll have community conversations with the book. The author will come in and read their story and read the story in the round with the other community members, right? And they'll talk about the themes and it resonates with them, with the community members. And then we'll have like a painting exercise.
And what's funny about the painting exercise is that my encouragement is for people to just paint spirals, right? Because you don't have to think too much about it. So when people just painting spirals, people talk, they begin to talk and they begin to connect and they begin to like tell jokes and laugh. And it's really just so like joyful to see people connecting, painting adults in the 40s, 50s and 60s like.
saying I've never painted in my life except when I was in kindergarten, I don't know how to paint. And then we just give them paints and they start painting, right? And so it does something to the spirit, right? And the real cool thing about Historia de Crecimiento is the breadth of abilities, writing abilities. There were people in this group that were doctors or artists or people who had written before, and there were people who had never written before.
Chrissie Ott (30:36.342)
And so when I received their story, it was like the longest text you had ever seen. Cause that's all I've ever done. Right? Is write a text. So, we honored where everybody was at. And for the person that wrote the biggest text in the world, which was their story, we just, we just, added simple punctuation and we kept their voice, as their voice. Cause it doesn't.
matter whether you write well or grammatically correct or in some literary way that's like the way, story will be conveyed regardless of your ability to try. And that was a great gift to learn from that project. Yes. Storytelling does not depend on grammar. No. doesn't depend on grammar. It doesn't depend...
doesn't depend on how you do it. We inherently know that when we tell a story, we begin talking, we start talking from where we need to talk and we'll know when that is we start talking and then we'll stop talking when it's time to stop talking. That's it. There's your frame. we go. Joaquin, what is a simple
action that you have found effective or that you would share with individuals listening today who might be looking to connect with joy but not really sure how to do it.
first thing I would say is to understand that joy lives in us. It's already part of us, right? The question isn't, where can I find joy? The question is, how do I make contact with my joy? Right? love that. That's so very true. So there's no question. There's no way there's no buddy you have to pay for to get you in touch with your joy. Right?
Chrissie Ott (32:45.058)
Like it's in you already. So just knowing that and do something you like that just makes you smile. It doesn't have to be euphoric. It doesn't have to be like groundbreaking. Your joy doesn't have to change the world. Your joy can just change your world. That's it, right?
That's the advice I would give. And I give myself that advice because sometimes I think that to be in touch with my feelings, to be expressive and to be all these things means I have to be like famous or means that everybody has to know who I am or means that I need to now share all of this to everyone. But no, it doesn't. I could be so filled with richness and color and joy.
and feeling and no one has to know about it. And I can go to bed, close my eyes and take it with me. And then wake up with it. It's mine, right? And that's what I will tell people. It's yours. Like it's not anyone's, it's yours. It's yours. It's yours.
Makes me think of the Catholic Church many, many centuries ago. You used to able to buy indulgences, right? Where you can like buy your forgiveness from God. I think that's so cool. It's a concept. It's a funny concept. Man, if I could buy my joy, shit, that'd be good.
This is a form of joy, right here for me for sure. And you have generously offered to share a couple of poems with us. And I'd love to read the butterfly, La Mariposa, together, as you suggested, and then follow that with closing up with the journey. Yeah, you bet. So will you read?
Chrissie Ott (35:00.226)
The English Nari de Spanish? Sure. This is The Butterfly by Joaquin Lopez. Yes, a little bit about this. I read this a lot for when I officiate weddings. I will read this for people. It's a poem that has lived in me for very long time.
And I even want to read the beginning here about...
A spoken truth received by an open heart is a union.
When two people express and receive their love for one another in the presence of friends and family who listen with open hearts, their love unites.
This is why community is a love poem.
Chrissie Ott (36:05.314)
May we all access love in all of its manifestations, in all its depth, and in all its ways through the poems of all humanity.
The Butterfly, La Mariposa.
In certain moments, I faith in love, in heroes without martyrs. I lose faith in the power of music and the word. I lose faith in life and even in myself.
Every once in a while, I lose faith in love, in heroes, in martyrs. I lose faith in the power of music and words. I lose faith in life and in myself.
Luego creo que el amor no puede salvarnos, no puede curarnos o llevarnos a ese lugar especial lleno de alegría y soles brillantes donde hay lluvias de flores y danzas de mariposas monarcas.
Chrissie Ott (37:15.948)
Then I believe that love cannot save us nor heal us or take us to that special place filled with joy, with an illuminating sun, where flowers rain and monarch butterflies dance.
Then, like a punch to the gut, the revolution arrives. My body shakes. My blood flows. My wings form. My cocoon dismembers. I open my wings. I release.
the wind takes me.
Subitamente el mundo es hermoso, abierto, amable. Yo abro mis ojos. Te veo. And suddenly the world is beautiful, open, warm. I lift my eyes. I see you. Mi amigo. Mi amor. My friend. My love.
This cocoon I built is not so strong. Or in the end, as I open my wings, it's you my eyes rest on.
Chrissie Ott (39:04.11)
So beautiful, Ike. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. What's interesting about transformation and joy and pain is when you look at the butterfly, the caterpillar finds a place on a branch to have its cocoon, enters into that cocoon phase.
Inside the cocoon, it digests itself.
Chrissie Ott (39:39.818)
It separates all its parts and digests itself. That's fascinating. And then through some DNA magic, it puts itself back together. But it puts itself back together in such a way that now this time it has wings.
and the journey isn't over. It now has to crush through, burst through the exterior cocoon that is made to bind things together. So it has to break through that barrier, which is no easy feat, in order for it to at last...
fly and be released. I mean, if that's not a metaphor, I don't know what it is. Actually, it's not a metaphor. It's Metamorphosis, metaphore -phosis. Yeah. And I think that's the difficult part about healing is that when we're feeling painful, we think we're going to transform them so we don't feel the pain anymore so that our pain is transformed into another experience. But
Unfortunately, the pain has to be experienced so that there is a sort of breakthrough and a release and an ability to walk again freely. Fly. Or fly. Yeah. The last poem I wanted to share with you all is called For the Journey. And in 2020, when the pandemic hit, I was actually
managing a leadership program at Latino Network. And it was a statewide leadership program for Latino professionals statewide. And the pandemic hit in the middle of the program. we had half the program we were meeting in person and the other half was Zoom, right? It was the toughest thing I've ever done, like having to learn Zoom or learn this world that we're now doing so easily at this moment.
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was really difficult for me. But I did it and lots of sleepiness and nights and lots of crying, but I did it. And we graduated the folks, right? We had to come together and part of their graduation experience includes...
a think they got a candle, a journal, a pen, right? Those kinds of things. And I wrote this poem for them to send them off. So it's called For the Journey, and I share it with you here. For the Journey.
Be the person who sees the joy in others. Be the one who takes a chance on someone and accepts not just who they are, but how they are.
Chrissie Ott (43:00.962)
Believe in humans.
contribute to your community.
Engage with loved ones.
Communicate always. Follow through. And when in doubt, lead with your talents. They are inherent in you, your essence. It is how you give and receive love, your flesh and history, your body and voice.
no one can take that away from you. Thank you so much Joaquin. That was so powerful. May we be the people who see the joy in ourselves and others. May we solve for joy and may we put the heart of other people's solving for joy. 100%.
Chrissie Ott (44:15.776)
I can't wait to have you back. Yeah, I want to come back. Stay tuned and we will close out with a little music from Joaquin after this. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for solving for joy. Thanks again, Joaquin. You're the best. You're the best. Thank you.
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Chrissie Ott (47:53.294)
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Thank you so much for being with us today at the Solving for Joy podcast. I hope that you will join us next time when I get to have a conversation with Corey Thompson, my beloved friend of many years, who is also a sex therapist and has some really interesting takes on solving for joy in relationship and all of the intricate ways that we try to do that. It's gonna be a fabulous time.
One more time I wanted to mention that we are offering 30 days of creative wisdom this month. Starting October 8th for 30 days, 30 minutes at a time, we will be live on Zoom.
And for just $30, you can join us and get replay access to all 30 of these delightful live calls. It's like a tasting menu of coaches and coach concepts. I am so excited to see where this leads us and what kind of spark creates in the world. I want to take a moment to acknowledge my incredible team. Our music today is by Denys Kyshchuk. Cover photography by the talented Shelby Brakken. This podcast is produced by the amazing Kelsey Vaughn. Post-production and more are handled by Alyssa Wilkes and my executive assistant, Rachel Osborne. A special shout out to my steadfast friend and director of operations, Denise Crane, and to the one and only loyal champion number one fan, Suzanne Sanchez. Thanks again for tuning in.
May we continue caring for ourselves and others, and may we continue solving for joy.
